Slow, armor is worthless, and everything is super deadly...

[Hexagoros]

So, basically everything except the guns can 1-3 shot me, and yet my options to mitigate all of that damage are non-existent, and the armor I'm wearing is apparently made of cardboard.

I'm not feeling at all like the super-armored super-soldier I'm supposed to be portraying. Honestly, unless SpaceHulk terminators are wildly less powerful then their 40k counterparts, I think tinfoil would offer more protection then whatever the heck it is my character is armored in.

It's just not enjoyable having to chug heals the whole damn level, and the psygate for yet another heal and more ammo for the heals.

Why not just have the damn armor actually offer some protection instead of giving us an IV of heals?

[Herr Morlock]

From my few minutes of watching there are some things which fell into my eyes:

1.) Background sounds are very climatic (the hearbeat of the space marine, the sounds of the enginges, the voices of the tyranids) and always there, which makes you feel unease.
2.) The player is walking just like on "railways", not looking up or down, which makes it look more like a tank or a mech, than an infantrist.
3.) The voice chat is creating a lot of atmosphere, and it seems not to repat a lot.
4.) The enemy density seems to be a bit lower, which makes it exciting when some genestealers show themselves.
5.) The distance of the view is rather low (at least in some rooms like mist), since your enemy is cc based, this makes it uncomfortable and exciting for you.

Now I'm interested. How would you propose to change the Terminators in Deathwing to improve that feeling?

From the points I've observed, it could be a method to improve the sounds of it. AFAIK this is already known as weak point of the game.

[gua543]

Originally posted by Mr B.:

As a terminator, you don't feel like you have decent armour on, or an elite marine.

To quote a famous individual: "That's just, like, your opinion, man.". All your complaints about the feeling of playing as a terminator are pretty baseless and can be summarized in "I just don't like it". No, I'm not just referring to the ones made in this thread. Maybe you should take the nostalgia glasses off, because VotBA hasn't aged well and, IMO, can't be used as a good example on how to do proper terminators.

Is Deathwing a flawless game? Absolutely not. Is the gameplay one of the reasons why it's got low population? To some extent, yes. Is the terminator movement/attacks/etc one of the bad sides of this game? In my honest opinion, no.

[Herr Morlock]

Originally posted by gua543:

To quote a famous individual: "That's just, like, your opinion, man."

The Dude abides!

[SteelaiRizel]

Originally posted by Hexagoros:

Originally posted by gua543:

For the record, the gameplay is the last reason why there's barely anyone playing. If you're playing on easy difficulty, you can shrug off most damage and just crush everything in your path. If you're playing on hard, well, you can't do that. And you shouldn't be able to.

40k is one of the most popular IPs in existence. A game like this should have legions of fans, instead it's basically reduced to a handful of hardcores left arguing in the forums.

Could it be, maybe just maybe, 'something' is wrong in how this game was formulated?

In game where you're as fragile as a wet paper bag, you should have damage mitigation options - not be lumbering around like a tank on legs.

The fact is, you do 'not' feel like a Terminator in this game, and everyone keeps citing some 30 year old board game as 'evidence' that the devs got it right, while ignoring the literal text books of lore that have come up since then. You know, the stuff people 'actually' think of when they think of Terminators.

Originally posted by Rotiart:

44 posts, and not one person has yet bothered to mention that it's bad form to confuse fluff with crunch?

This game gets both wrong. What's your point?

You do realize that regardless of how "popular" Warhammer 40K is, that in the world of video games there is a literal handful of decent ones that can be mentioned right?

And none of them can even touch Vermintide 2 and Total Warhammer in levels of success, even the good ones.

In the world of tabletop 40K is a giant. In the world of video gaming, its a box somewhere in your closet that you randomly see on occasion when you grab your coat when it gets a bit chilly in the winter months. I think it's an apt analogy for how relevant it is in the gaming world. Which is beginning to change dramatically in no small part due to Warhammer Fantasy's strong video game success in recent years but still.

[Mr B.]

Originally posted by gua543:

Originally posted by Mr B.:

As a terminator, you don't feel like you have decent armour on, or an elite marine.

To quote a famous individual: "That's just, like, your opinion, man.". All your complaints about the feeling of playing as a terminator are pretty baseless and can be summarized in "I just don't like it". No, I'm not just referring to the ones made in this thread. Maybe you should take the nostalgia glasses off, because VotBA hasn't aged well and, IMO, can't be used as a good example on how to do proper terminators.

Is Deathwing a flawless game? Absolutely not. Is the gameplay one of the reasons why it's got low population? To some extent, yes. Is the terminator movement/attacks/etc one of the bad sides of this game? In my honest opinion, no.

Looking at the reviews, that's not an uncommon opinion. Of course, you then stating as fact my complaints are baseless are equally as opinionated. My complaints are valid, and if you took off the rose tinted glasses, you'd realise that since many others say it.

I never said this game should copy VOTBA. Nor do I look upon it with only nostalgia, ffs learn to read. What is it with you defenders proving you never do? Sorry for the rant but this happens time after time and unless you want to be stuck with a stereotype, READ.

My point was I felt like a terminator, and yet still have the stealers deadly. There's quite a few reasons for this:

If I hit them, they went down. Hitting wasn't always easy though.

They were deadly. If they hit me in the front, that was it. You could get crowded, and while it often let you take out one and then engage the other, sometimes they took you out from the back/side. This felt right to me, since the armour is thick but the front (especially the head which they often went for) was a definate weak point.

The pace was right, imo at least. It just felt perfect for the terminator. The sprint feels like total bollards in DW. Controversial one that, and it's been argued to death.

Other teammates were obstacles. Now I know this is problematic given the type of game DW is, and it could lead to griefing if you couldn't clip through. But still, it doesn't help immersion nor the feeling of being in a huge suit.

When I hit a stealer, it really felt like it. Partly because they went down in one hit, but mainly because you really saw and heard it. This is the total reverse of DW, you spam melee and don't really see much/hear much, just the mix of many in melee. Smack smack smack. I think part the problem with DW is that the screen is far too busy.

Now, no-one throw lore at me - this totally IGNORES the lore spacehulk wise, and they have gone their own way within the confines of GW and sometimes outside. So lets not even go there.

If I played votba now, it'd be too out of date, especially graphics wise. But it definately had more feeling then this POS.

[gua543]

Have you actually bothered to get a more in-depth look at the proper reviews, or do you just go "well, there's a lot of negative ones, so game is bad". Few, if any, have the feeling of the terminators as a negative point. You claim that nobody ever acknowledges your arguments, yet you're doing the exact same thing. "hurr durr, you guys just say the same thing over and over again", and then you hit back with "it just doesn't feel ok". Talk about claiming your point of view is the only correct one.

You think it makes sense that the front of your armour, which will be getting hit by the enemy most since, you know, you're facing them, should be the weakest part? You think that it makes sense for half a dozen regular genestealers to take down a terminator?

And come on, sprinting and being able to move through other players doesn't help immersion? Like, yeah, you're correct if you're looking purely from the immersion aspect. But a game that focuses too much on being immersive stops being fun, IMO. For example, a mechanic in which gear is getting worn down and you have to repair it manually is just a resource sink. Would it have been better if you couldn't move through other players, and you actually had a little charging up thing going on before sprinting? If you couldn't slow down immediately and you could just crush smaller nids under the weight of your armor? Absolutely. Is it that much of a immersion-breaking issue? Not for me, but to each their own.

And finally, the melee. The biggest problem for many. Well, I completely disagree with you here. For me it feels great. Hitting a white nid with the power fist once so that it gets stunned, and then bashing it's head the second time never gets old. You have melee spam if you're an assault and you're facing the mob, definitely, but that's also how it should be from my point of view.

Now, should you like the game because I just said all those things? No. Games are a form of art, and people don't like the same things. You're absolutely allowed to not like certain things because they don't fit your preferences. But claiming something is trash because of things that are pretty subjective in nature is not ok.

Also, don't confuse me for some braindead fanboy. At no point did I claim Deathwing doesn't have flaws, or some things couldn't have been done better. I'm on the opinion that it doesn't cost more than 15 euros in it's current state. But it's also not a complete dumpster fire as many claim it is.

P.S. I'm also on the opinion people should stop making connections between this game, the tabletop and official 40k lore. For starters, terminators are pretty ♥♥♥♥ right now on the tabletop, and the fluff has a tendency to change drastically from author to author.

[[NeW]Spiked]

I too find the melee very satisfying in this game. For all the comparisons to the vastly more successful Vermintide 2, it's worth pointing out that on the highest difficulties in that game, you can die in just a few hits as well - instead that game relies a lot more on mindless mouse1 spamming trash in the correct directions to boost your temporary health, until Elites show up and you can start thinking again. I'm glad SHDW took a different direction, where even with the most basic enemy you still have to think about dodging and timing. And splatting a Nid with a powerfist never gets old.

What I like about this game is that once you understand more about the game's mechanics, you can up your survivability substantially, but you're never more than a couple of bad moves away from a fast death. So when you do take on a large group of enemies and come out alive, it feels like an achievement. Unfortunately a lot of the mechanics are tucked away and not explained very well by the game, but they're there (and in my guide, wink wink).

If you want to feel like a badass Terminator, you can, but you have to work for it, and it doesn't come from being able to face-tank loads of hits all the time. Granted, Mr. B and the OP seem to have opposite views of this particular aspect of the game, but I'm definitely in the camp that the lethality of even the most basic enemy is a good thing.

[Chairman Wang]

Originally posted by Mr B.:

You don't get it. While a team can help make it better, it doesn't wipe out the fundamental issues if not actually feeling like a terminator.

Winning/losing doesn't matter to me. But the feel of the game does. This doesn't get my heart racing like votba did.

Wait a second. "The rules have all changes" turns into... "but I wanna be a termie?" What a terminator "is" is defined by your expectations based on rules for other irrelevant mediums if you want to put it like that.

Take it for what it is, sci-fi L4D that, yes is by far more clunky but hey the guns are big and the levels are cool to look around in if not actually all that varied. IMO at the core, this is a great game that's mostly hampered by the fact its obtuse in it's design and what it wants from a player. I'd argue thats the most damning blow, much more than any failing to "live up to" wh40k lore.

[Mr B.]

Originally posted by gua543:

Have you actually bothered to get a more in-depth look at the proper reviews, or do you just go "well, there's a lot of negative ones, so game is bad". Few, if any, have the feeling of the terminators as a negative point. You claim that nobody ever acknowledges your arguments, yet you're doing the exact same thing. "hurr durr, you guys just say the same thing over and over again", and then you hit back with "it just doesn't feel ok". Talk about claiming your point of view is the only correct one.

Are you joking? I've been on the forums since pre-order (check if you like) and also read many many reviews, both original and EE. Apart from that, WTF? Of course the game is bad! While I appriciate you might like it, if the game wasn't bad it wouldn't have crashed so hard on player count.

You do know before the sale it had sub 50 avg a month? And of course, the reviews.

And there is a list as long as my arm on the basics it's missing from what you expect as standard for a co-op these days.

You think it makes sense that the front of your armour, which will be getting hit by the enemy most since, you know, you're facing them, should be the weakest part? You think that it makes sense for half a dozen regular genestealers to take down a terminator?

I've no idea what your getting at here other than some weird attack on what's not actually my logic. But lets play along, even though I'm not the one that invented the armour or genestealers....

Yes the weakest part facing foward. Are you nuts? You want the weakest part facing a side your not looking from on a slow moving person against a much quicker foe? And yes there has to be a weakest part, since it wouldn't be fun just having a rectangle of metal with no helmet, just sensors on.

Again, it's not up to me on how many stealers it takes to take down a terminator. I know what the lore says, but as before this game is so far away on lore you might as well have power armoured marines in this.

My requirements are: Make it exciting. Make it feel what I am (in this instance, a very large and sacred suit of armour). An elite among immortal warriors who live only to fight.

I do not get that with this game. I've explained why, and how the last one made me feel it. I'm not a game designer, just a customer.

But a game that focuses too much on being immersive stops being fun, IMO. For example, a mechanic in which gear is getting worn down and you have to repair it manually is just a resource sink. Would it have been better if you couldn't move through other players, and you actually had a little charging up thing going on before sprinting?

That's not what immersive means. Your saying it equals RL, it doesn't. A good game gets you immersed and doesn't hassle you with the RL stuff that would get annoying.

And finally, the melee. The biggest problem for many. Well, I completely disagree with you here.

Then we shall disagree. For me, it's turned into a horde game, which wouldn't be such a bad thing, but it's not even as good as L4D. And no, I didn't want a clone, but at least the weapons felt meaty in that.

You're absolutely allowed to not like certain things because they don't fit your preferences. But claiming something is trash because of things that are pretty subjective in nature is not ok.

Agreed, but in this instance this game is trash. I say this because as before, it's missing some absoloute basics which might have saved it. Just after pre-order, I raised concerns that MP simply wasn't good enough - they needed a dedicated server client. Relying on p2p for a bit of a niche game was NOT going to work.

I am not a games designer and think of myself of average intelligence. So how the hell they couldn't see that coming is a total and utter mystery to me.

Plus, the implimentation of MP was all wrong. Region locking? Hell, they even REMOVED the ping in the lobby screen. Guess who asked for that back?

Not even voip. Can you kick/ban someone? I can't remember if they even added that in.

Guess who also noticed the problem with not being able to join games was due to ghost sessions showing on the lobby?

You should nip over to their own forums and find my posts to see what I raised.

I'm not going over the whole list, I've done it too many times before. But yes, it's a ♥♥♥♥ game especially for a company that's made MP games before (EYE). Regardless, if you don't even know the basics you should add in a co-op game, you shouldn't be trying. All they need to do is look at things like L4D, Killing floor, payday etc.

[FusionJay]

I blame the dev's

[✠UK_SPAWN✠]

A good team can survive pretty much endless in the hardest difficulty... just git gud...

[gua543]

Mr. B, this thread is specifically about nids being too OP and terminators not feeling like terminators. Don't steer it to the other issues (although I don't deny their existence).

For the reviews, I referred specifically to the feeling of the terminators and how it's not listed as a downside. I wasn't getting into the whole list of downsides they are listing. Stay on topic.

For my second point, I was making a connection between VotBA, which you claim gets everything right in terms of terminators and nids correct. For starters, personal armour shouldn't have a weak side. It should provide equal protection from all sides. Second, nids in VotBA are way too OP compared to nids here. I don't feel like I'm playing with a centuries-old veteran in one of the most advanced suits of armour ever created when I go down in one hit by some scrawny looking xeno. Which is what VotBA is like, from the footage I've seen.

I guess we'll disagree on the immersive part as well, then. Because I was truly interested in exploring the space hulk, and the gameplay kept me into it. I haven't been able to play the game in a while, but I think my hours speak enough. It's nothing too crazy, but definitely more than enough to show I like it.

As for the game missing some key p2p and co-op features - I agree with you. On some points. There should have been host relocation at the very least, and renown should have been granted immediately, not at the end of the mission. Voip, being able to kick people - I don't really see how those things are that important, but I understand their usefulness. I can't say why they removed (and subsequently returned) the ping visibility, I'm guessing it was technical issues on their side. Again, not that important to begin with, especially with the region locking in effect. It's always best if you host your own games anyway.

Once more, I never claimed this game doesn't have issues. But it's completely playable. If someone goes through your posts to get an idea of what the game is, he'll become convinced you can't even get past the starting screen because of the countless bugs. I'm not trying to say that the game is amazing and a must-have. But it's good enough, and the issues it has, while completely valid, are getting blown way out of proportions.

[Mr B.]

This is exactly why I said about READING in my earlier post. You got so much wrong.

Firstly, you said 'you can't say its a bad game'. Well I can and I said why. That one is on you. My point is I've seen plenty, both here and in reviews about how the terminators feel.

For my second point, I was making a connection between VotBA, which you claim gets everything right in terms of terminators and nids correct. For starters, personal armour shouldn't have a weak side. It should provide equal protection from all sides. .

You've got just about everything wrong there.

I never said it gets everything right. I'm simply saying how it made me feel and why.

For starters, personal armour shouldn't have a weak side. It should provide equal protection from all sides.

. Just...wow. You haven't a clue, nor did you read what I said. Unless you want to make the most stupid looking helmets ever, how on earth do you provide the same protection all the way round? I've not heard something so stupid for a long time.

Second, nids in VotBA are way too OP compared to nids here. I don't feel like I'm playing with a centuries-old veteran in one of the most advanced suits of armour ever created when I go down in one hit by some scrawny looking xeno. Which is what VotBA is like, from the footage I've seen

.
Wait, so despite the fact that votba was far closer to the lore of SH, it's wrong? Your telling me that these deadly aliens, which can often only score a killing hit by going for the head feels more realistic than a supposedly elite super soldier that can rarely shoot straight, only by zooming in with single shots? Riiiiiight. And while I'm well aware of what boltguns fire, it is the aforementioned super solider with the heaviest armour available that comes with a plethora of assisting mechanisms to steady it...

And since you haven't played it, and I've played both, your opinion is somewhat lacking here.

[gua543]

Literally what.

Who's even talking about helmets? I was talking about body armour.
Weren't you the guy that repeatedly says we should disregard the SH lore when talking about this game? Don't you think that translating "lore" from the tabletop directly into a fluff-based setting, like a book or a videogame, is gonna end up making the space marines really underpowered and everyone else OP?
From where even came up the shooting-straight argument, if you can even call it that. If you're going for weapons not being presented properly, then that's your opinion about a subjective thing. I think they're fine as they are, with the obvious need to have the storm bolters do more damage. You heard of this thing called Youtube, and the various videos it contains there? There's enough stuff about VotBA, and I don't need to play it to get a general idea of what it's like.

I've also read plenty of negative reviews. As I previously stated, very few have the feeling of terminators as a negative point, most of the time it's up there with the things done right.

And I also said you can't claim it's a bad game based on opinions about subjective things, which most of your arguments are. If we're going to talk about technical issues, then yes - this game is lacking in some departments. But again, it's nothing game breaking.

[Mr B.]

Sigh, it's pointless discussing when the other person doesn't even bother reading what you said.

Who's even talking about helmets? I was talking about body armour.

Stupid, stupid, stupid. You think an alien wouldn't go for a weak point?!? In case you missed it:

This felt right to me, since the armour is thick but the front (especially the head which they often went for) was a definate weak point.

Apart from that, armour is often weaker at the front due to the human body and the way it needs to move. But again, your just spouting stuff you clearly know nothing about. Before you answer, go and look at some basics on armour. While your at it, look at the front and back of terminator armour. I'm not going to explain the intricacies of how it needs to allow the body to bend forwards, and arms come in. If you don't understand then you obviously haven't put the slightest thought into it.

Weren't you the guy that repeatedly says we should disregard the SH lore when talking about this game? Don't you think that translating "lore" from the tabletop directly into a fluff-based setting, like a book or a videogame, is gonna end up making the space marines really underpowered and everyone else OP?

No, because you seem to be incapable of reading, I said we have to ignore the lore because the game has. And I'm not holding it to account for that because it's a clear move away from it.

What I am saying though, is that while it's not entirely lore friendly, you cannot ignore the fact your supposed to be the elite of the space marines in the best armour they have. You do not seem to be able to grasp the simple premise that I (and many others) do not feel like this game represents that.

I think it's deliberate on your part. You bring up the most dumb arguments like armour should be all the same, when I have NOTHING to do with it. Did I work for GW and invent the armour? To clarify, no I didn't.

'Waaaaa armour should be the same protection all round!!'.

Stupidity again. Regardless of if it should or not, terminator suits are OBVIOUSLY more weak at the front. Blame GW, not me. But if your saying it's easier to penetrate a terminator suit from the back rather than the front (including the head), then..ehhhh.

And one more thing we disagree on - most strongly on my part I have to say. Watching the vids doesn't give you a full feeling for how the game is. Otherwise we would never buy any games but just watch others playing them.

A game doesn't have to have game breaking bugs to be a bad game. The sum of bad stuff makes it a bad game. Like, the spelling mistakes I don't think they have corrected yet, even after being told many times.