Game is overrated

[Average Juice Enjoyer]

There's just no denying it, it has no replayability, it has no dlc, it has no fashion or cosmetic items, no coop or pvp.. your first playthrough is the exact same as your 50th because nothing changes.

Boring game that i couldn't even be bothered to finish, think i died maybe 5 times in the full game :/ coming from Souls this game just left so much to be desired.

PS. Don't day that using things like firecrackers or the spear make for 'build' variety, you are a clown if you think that those gimmicky little things actually change anything.

[Tomoko]

Escrito originalmente por EF_Neo1st:

I agree with you, it have different endings, but I consider different playthrough by playing with different "tools" and, well, Sekiro can deliver that too and have different gameplay styles:
- reactions only
- dash and attack only (my second playthrough)
- dash, attack and reactions (my first playthrough)
- dash, attack and reactions with prostetics and items (basically using everything available)
- monk skills only
- dash and monk skills only
- reactions and monk skills only
.
.
.

It can be played differently and deliver very different gameplay experiences.

From my experience with Dark Souls (50 of DS2, 100 of DS1, over 300 of DS3), I dont remember being killed by RNG other than me not understanding what happened or by complete lack of attention or awareness, always myself to blame but no RNG at all.

About cheating ... if he complete the game by cheating to get achievements, it is a single player game only and he cheated himself only, I believe whoever do it dont really have much pride to care about what others say about cheating...
BUT ...

Boring game that i couldn't even be bothered to finish, think i died maybe 5 times in the full game

it really seem like he played untill gyoubu ... untill Ashina Castle at best ... and then just called it a day.

To clarify a few things -

I made a bold statement that he cheated in the achievements - NOT that he cheated in the game itself. It's incredibly easy to cheat in achievements on steam. To see if others have done this, look at the date that they've unlocked those achievements!

And as for RNG in DS: I've only played a limited amount of Dark Souls, and it was Dark Souls 2. A very poorly designed game from the ground up (Which seems to be the consensus), but my inexperience and youth at the time accentuated those issues.

[EF_Neo1st]

Escrito originalmente por Tomoko:

Escrito originalmente por EF_Neo1st:

I agree with you, it have different endings, but I consider different playthrough by playing with different "tools" and, well, Sekiro can deliver that too and have different gameplay styles:
- reactions only
- dash and attack only (my second playthrough)
- dash, attack and reactions (my first playthrough)
- dash, attack and reactions with prostetics and items (basically using everything available)
- monk skills only
- dash and monk skills only
- reactions and monk skills only
.
.
.

It can be played differently and deliver very different gameplay experiences.

From my experience with Dark Souls (50 of DS2, 100 of DS1, over 300 of DS3), I dont remember being killed by RNG other than me not understanding what happened or by complete lack of attention or awareness, always myself to blame but no RNG at all.

About cheating ... if he complete the game by cheating to get achievements, it is a single player game only and he cheated himself only, I believe whoever do it dont really have much pride to care about what others say about cheating...
BUT ...

it really seem like he played untill gyoubu ... untill Ashina Castle at best ... and then just called it a day.

To clarify a few things -

I made a bold statement that he cheated in the achievements - NOT that he cheated in the game itself. It's incredibly easy to cheat in achievements on steam. To see if others have done this, look at the date that they've unlocked those achievements!

And as for RNG in DS: I've only played a limited amount of Dark Souls, and it was Dark Souls 2. A very poorly designed game from the ground up (Which seems to be the consensus), but my inexperience and youth at the time accentuated those issues.

I agree, DS2 is indeed a mess of game design and gameplay and is good just for the PvP not having lag issues and the possibility to be invaded anywhere, but I just can not like DS2 easy PvE combat neither the aesthetics enough to force myself through the mess convolution of areas I am lost after beating 23 bosses to find what to do and where to go (and as I dont use wiki or videos, I am lost and that is it).
Still, there is no RNG at DS2 either ... just weird hitboxes and super delayed and telegraphed attacks you just need to get used to, easy to exploit these for easy kills and backstabs.

Some say the strong point of DS 2 is the DLC, where DS2 shines, but I can not be bothered to get there either.

[(Edgy) Asriel Dreemurr]

Escrito originalmente por An Irate Walrus:

Escrito originalmente por President Donald Trump:

Sekiro is a character action game. Dark Souls is an RPG

Ah, but here's where we get into the hair-splitting that inevitably informs discussions of modern genre-spanning titles.

Dark Souls is an RPG in that it has certain elements we expect to find in RPGs, sure: we can design our characters, manage stat progression, select equipment, etc.--but the way it plays out is very much in line with other ARPGs like The Witcher 3. Combat is real-time and dependent upon both player knowledge of enemy behavior/their own arsenal *and* player reflexes/timing.

This was not true of video RPGs in previous decades; from the big names like Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest over to WRPGs like Fallout 1/2, combat was generally turn-based, requiring very little manual dexterity or understanding of timing outside of turns/boss timers.

In that sense, then, I'd argue that Dark Souls could be considered an action game with RPG elements bolted on.

The same thing applies to Sekiro. While it's true we're stuck with the character as he is presented, and his development paths are much more linear than that of our player-made characters in the Souls games, older RPGs also featured fixed characters. I refer you again to the older titles I mentioned above: every last one of them had pre-defined characters who could only develop along certain, limited pathways--and in some cases even had their equipment restricted based on their character class.

While Sekiro's action is faster/more frenetic/more aggressive than the somewhat more sedate pace of Dark Souls, it's no less an RPG than was Bloodborne.

It's an action game with RPG elements bolted on to it.

...like more or less every other major From Software release since Demon's Souls.

The speed of combat isn’t what makes Sekiro not an RPG.

Sekiro is a single player action game, not an Action RPG like Dark Souls.

The reason for this is that Sekiro focuses on a single set of combat mechanics which you progressively get better at over the course of the game. All your gameplay choices are directly tied to the few mechanics you are given, any deviations are merely small additions to give some variety.

Dark Souls by contrast is not about learning combat, it’s about building your character the way you want and finding what strategies you can use to deal with enemies. The list of what you can do is much broader and is more heavily based on choices you make.

And while yes, other RPGs have a narrative where we play as a certain character, they usually also give you a lot of gameplay variety to make up for it. Either you get to choose from a massive grab bag of potential questlines, the game gives you party members that let you strategize how these different play styles work together, or you can customize the abilities or combat mechanics of your character(s).

Sekiro does not do any of that. It just says, you are Wolf, here’s your sword, here’s how to fight, go have your adventure.

[An Irate Walrus]

Escrito originalmente por (Edgy) Asriel Dreemurr:

Escrito originalmente por An Irate Walrus:

Ah, but here's where we get into the hair-splitting that inevitably informs discussions of modern genre-spanning titles.

Dark Souls is an RPG in that it has certain elements we expect to find in RPGs, sure: we can design our characters, manage stat progression, select equipment, etc.--but the way it plays out is very much in line with other ARPGs like The Witcher 3. Combat is real-time and dependent upon both player knowledge of enemy behavior/their own arsenal *and* player reflexes/timing.

This was not true of video RPGs in previous decades; from the big names like Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest over to WRPGs like Fallout 1/2, combat was generally turn-based, requiring very little manual dexterity or understanding of timing outside of turns/boss timers.

In that sense, then, I'd argue that Dark Souls could be considered an action game with RPG elements bolted on.

The same thing applies to Sekiro. While it's true we're stuck with the character as he is presented, and his development paths are much more linear than that of our player-made characters in the Souls games, older RPGs also featured fixed characters. I refer you again to the older titles I mentioned above: every last one of them had pre-defined characters who could only develop along certain, limited pathways--and in some cases even had their equipment restricted based on their character class.

While Sekiro's action is faster/more frenetic/more aggressive than the somewhat more sedate pace of Dark Souls, it's no less an RPG than was Bloodborne.

It's an action game with RPG elements bolted on to it.

...like more or less every other major From Software release since Demon's Souls.

The speed of combat isn’t what makes Sekiro not an RPG.

Sekiro is a single player action game, not an Action RPG like Dark Souls.

The reason for this is that Sekiro focuses on a single set of combat mechanics which you progressively get better at over the course of the game. All your gameplay choices are directly tied to the few mechanics you are given, any deviations are merely small additions to give some variety.

Dark Souls by contrast is not about learning combat, it’s about building your character the way you want and finding what strategies you can use to deal with enemies. The list of what you can do is much broader and is more heavily based on choices you make.

And while yes, other RPGs have a narrative where we play as a certain character, they usually also give you a lot of gameplay variety to make up for it. Either you get to choose from a massive grab bag of potential questlines, the game gives you party members that let you strategize how these different play styles work together, or you can customize the abilities or combat mechanics of your character(s).

Sekiro does not do any of that. It just says, you are Wolf, here’s your sword, here’s how to fight, go have your adventure.

Alright, this is an awesome counter-argument! Before I say anything else, seriously, thank you for taking the time to put this together.

You make a compelling case for classifying Sekiro as an action game based on its primary design philosophy and the way the player interacts with the game--especially when weighed against the broader scope of possible approaches/strategies in Dark Souls. Honestly, this is one of the better argument of definition by negation examples I've seen in a hot minute.

I'll have to give this some thought (not that you particularly care, but I enjoy thought exercises like this, even if they're over silly things). At the moment, I'm still willing to stand by the idea that Sekiro functions as an ARPG largely because outside of its action elements, it functions more or less similarly to RPG designs from the 90s (I'm specifically thinking of Final Fantasy VI and Chrono Trigger here). The character can only progress along certain pathways--and while FF VI did have a modicum of customization in it relative to the use of magicite to learn spells, both it and CT featured a cast of characters with *very* narrow, limited development pathways.

True, leveling up was easier (and had a much higher ceiling on an initial playthrough; CT had NG+, but it was still perfectly possible to hit double-star level/99 even on the first run), but the basic principle remains the same.

That said, I think your argument may well be stronger than mine. I'm going to chew on it a bit.

Thanks again for giving me something to think about.

[EF_Neo1st]

Escrito originalmente por (Edgy) Asriel Dreemurr:

Dark Souls by contrast is not about learning combat, it’s about building your character the way you want and finding what strategies you can use to deal with enemies. The list of what you can do is much broader and is more heavily based on choices you make.

Ah crap, I've been playing at Dark Souls all wrong, to finish it I should learn to build my character not to dodge and attack, ah crap!!!

Despite it being the most recommended for a new player that is strugling at certain parts (build up stronger to stand more punishment and deal more damage), if what you said was true the GIT GUD meme wouldnt even exist ... and to think the real GIT GUD is about mindset, not about player skills ... or learning a "mythical build that solves all problems" (it dont exist, no build will make a terrible player finish the game if he dont learn at least the basics of "moment of attack", unless it is a super overleveled build and the game decide to take it easy on the player).

The list of possible mechanics is broader at any DS ... but it dont mean Sekiro is tied to the popularly spread "deflect to win" only either.

[(Edgy) Asriel Dreemurr]

Escrito originalmente por EF_Neo1st:

Escrito originalmente por (Edgy) Asriel Dreemurr:

Dark Souls by contrast is not about learning combat, it’s about building your character the way you want and finding what strategies you can use to deal with enemies. The list of what you can do is much broader and is more heavily based on choices you make.

Ah crap, I've been playing at Dark Souls all wrong, to finish it I should learn to build my character not to dodge and attack, ah crap!!!

Despite it being the most recommended for a new player that is strugling at certain parts (build up stronger to stand more punishment and deal more damage), if what you said was true the GIT GUD meme wouldnt even exist ... and to think the real GIT GUD is about mindset, not about player skills ... or learning a "mythical build that solves all problems" (it dont exist, no build will make a terrible player finish the game if he dont learn at least the basics of "moment of attack", unless it is a super overleveled build and the game decide to take it easy on the player).

The list of possible mechanics is broader at any DS ... but it dont mean Sekiro is tied to the popularly spread "deflect to win" only either.

Yes, but let’s be honest unless you’re doing a challenge run. “Gitting Gud” mostly involves finding a weapon or spell that suits your stats and upgrading it. Dark Souls only really tried to be hard after it became a meme, but the game is really just about finding what you can do to cheese the next set of enemies.

There’s literally that part in Undead Parish with the boar, which coaxes you towards an item (alluring skulls) you can use to make the boar kill itself...

Yes you can learn all the timing of boss attacks and dodge them, but at some point it’s a self-imposed challenge.

[EF_Neo1st]

Escrito originalmente por (Edgy) Asriel Dreemurr:

Escrito originalmente por EF_Neo1st:

Ah crap, I've been playing at Dark Souls all wrong, to finish it I should learn to build my character not to dodge and attack, ah crap!!!

Despite it being the most recommended for a new player that is strugling at certain parts (build up stronger to stand more punishment and deal more damage), if what you said was true the GIT GUD meme wouldnt even exist ... and to think the real GIT GUD is about mindset, not about player skills ... or learning a "mythical build that solves all problems" (it dont exist, no build will make a terrible player finish the game if he dont learn at least the basics of "moment of attack", unless it is a super overleveled build and the game decide to take it easy on the player).

The list of possible mechanics is broader at any DS ... but it dont mean Sekiro is tied to the popularly spread "deflect to win" only either.

Yes, but let’s be honest unless you’re doing a challenge run. “Gitting Gud” mostly involves finding a weapon or spell that suits your stats and upgrading it. Dark Souls only really tried to be hard after it became a meme, but the game is really just about finding what you can do to cheese the next set of enemies.

There’s literally that part in Undead Parish with the boar, which coaxes you towards an item (alluring skulls) you can use to make the boar kill itself...

Yes you can learn all the timing of boss attacks and dodge them, but at some point it’s a self-imposed challenge.

And again ... it all comes down to how you see the game ... I know all the cheese DS and Sekiro have, but my first DS was DS3 and ... despite being obvious that I could overlevel and tank a lot, enemies also made it very clear "overleveling do not grant survival or victory" and at Abyss Watchers I learned, on my own, the true value of going without armor and dodging everything instead of tanking like a champ behind a huge shield ... and so I do ever since, dodge and a good starting positioning is my main resource not "overleveling" or "build" as it dont matter if I dont get hit, and it proved true through the entirety of DS3 ... DS1, what I played of DS2, The Surge 1 and 2, Lords of the Fallen, AC Origins and Odyssey, Senua and, well, Sekiro, where I also used dash through and around enemies to attack.

I know DS can be played the tank with overleveling build and all ... but it also makes the game boring with boring gameplay and tedious grinding for gear and level.

[Zhiou]

yesyes

[Donaldo Trumpado]

OP is just bad at the game and doesn't want to seem like a whiny baby

[Erbid]

You've played DS2 and now think Sekiro is bad
Well...

[ice]

Dark souls is bad though.

It doesn't need DLC because the base game was made so great, unlike a lot of games nowadays where they only release 50% of the game because they want to charge you more for the rest of the content over time. If you want fashion download mods there's plenty of ways to change appearance with them. Multiplayer would just detract from the main single player experience, and the game is not the same each time you play, there are multiple endings, and the difficulty can be increased each play through. The replay-ability comes from perfecting your techniques until you can literally just stand in front of any enemy in the game and perfectly parry every attack, dodge flawlessly, and always know how to counter everything until you complete every fight perfectly without taking damage even at the maximum difficulty.

I get you don't possess the skill and patience to understand any of this so you're just objectively wrong on all levels. But that's to be expected of someone who thinks dark souls is an example of a good game.

[Donaldo Trumpado]

Escrito originalmente por iceink:

Dark souls is bad though.

It doesn't need DLC because the base game was made so great, unlike a lot of games nowadays where they only release 50% of the game because they want to charge you more for the rest of the content over time. If you want fashion download mods there's plenty of ways to change appearance with them. Multiplayer would just detract from the main single player experience, and the game is not the same each time you play, there are multiple endings, and the difficulty can be increased each play through. The replay-ability comes from perfecting your techniques until you can literally just stand in front of any enemy in the game and perfectly parry every attack, dodge flawlessly, and always know how to counter everything until you complete every fight perfectly without taking damage even at the maximum difficulty.

I get you don't possess the skill and patience to understand any of this so you're just objectively wrong on all levels. But that's to be expected of someone who thinks dark souls is an example of a good game.

Your most played game is TF2, so maybe don't throw stones in that glass house with your atrocious taste in games

[ice]

Escrito originalmente por President Donald Trump:

Escrito originalmente por iceink:

Dark souls is bad though.

It doesn't need DLC because the base game was made so great, unlike a lot of games nowadays where they only release 50% of the game because they want to charge you more for the rest of the content over time. If you want fashion download mods there's plenty of ways to change appearance with them. Multiplayer would just detract from the main single player experience, and the game is not the same each time you play, there are multiple endings, and the difficulty can be increased each play through. The replay-ability comes from perfecting your techniques until you can literally just stand in front of any enemy in the game and perfectly parry every attack, dodge flawlessly, and always know how to counter everything until you complete every fight perfectly without taking damage even at the maximum difficulty.

I get you don't possess the skill and patience to understand any of this so you're just objectively wrong on all levels. But that's to be expected of someone who thinks dark souls is an example of a good game.

Your most played game is TF2, so maybe don't throw stones in that glass house with your atrocious taste in games

If you're delusional enough to still think Trump hadn't lost the election I can discard whatever you have to say.

[EF_Neo1st]

I just dont agree that Dark Souls is bad (less if you are talking solely about DS2 . . . that is not bad, that is terrible).

DS3 > Sekiro > DS1 > The Surge 2 > The Witcher 3 > For Honor > Darksiders 3 > Nioh > The Witcher 2 > The Surge 1 > Lords of the Fallen > Monster Hunter World > Senua > DS2 SotFS > DS2

opinions .. that above is mine, but DS is far from being bad in every way (but optimization wise . . that is actually very bad).

[Donaldo Trumpado]

Escrito originalmente por iceink:

Escrito originalmente por President Donald Trump:

Your most played game is TF2, so maybe don't throw stones in that glass house with your atrocious taste in games

If you're delusional enough to still think Trump hadn't lost the election I can discard whatever you have to say.

Ad hominem is clearly the intellectual's logical fallacy seeing as how you know your taste in games is ze doo doo