Sekiro™: Shadows Die Twice

Sekiro™: Shadows Die Twice

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KeiwaM Aug 19, 2020 @ 2:46pm
Am I misunderstanding the point of step dodge?
Cause I'm fighting the chained ogre and when he lunges at me and I stepdodge, he does a 90 degree turn mid air and grabs me anyway. How exactly does dodging work? Cause it is less than useless for me.
Originally posted by FTZ35:
As Namelesa pointed out, jump over the lunging grab, dodge the other grabs.
Generally speaking, focus on actually avoiding the hits instead of relying on i-frames.
The most obvious use of dodge is for grabs, however there are other other attacks that even though might be deflectable, are better dodged. The typical characteristic of such attacks is that they are fairly slow, have low tracking, and have some way to deny you the chance to counterattack after you deflect them. However when dodged the enemy becomes temporarily defenseless during the recovery from their attack, allowing you to punish them with combat arts or prosthetic tools.
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Moh Aug 19, 2020 @ 3:00pm 
jump to dodge the lunge grab, the rest of the grabs use the step dodge
Originally posted by 32nd Cpl KeiwaM ラスムス:
Cause I'm fighting the chained ogre and when he lunges at me and I stepdodge, he does a 90 degree turn mid air and grabs me anyway. How exactly does dodging work? Cause it is less than useless for me.
Dogde is more like quickstep in this game because you have almost no ai frames when you dogding , so dont play it like bloodborne instead dogging try run around him and stay behind him .
Last edited by 𝕊𝕠𝕡𝕙𝕚𝕒; Aug 19, 2020 @ 3:24pm
The author of this thread has indicated that this post answers the original topic.
FTZ35 Aug 19, 2020 @ 4:32pm 
As Namelesa pointed out, jump over the lunging grab, dodge the other grabs.
Generally speaking, focus on actually avoiding the hits instead of relying on i-frames.
The most obvious use of dodge is for grabs, however there are other other attacks that even though might be deflectable, are better dodged. The typical characteristic of such attacks is that they are fairly slow, have low tracking, and have some way to deny you the chance to counterattack after you deflect them. However when dodged the enemy becomes temporarily defenseless during the recovery from their attack, allowing you to punish them with combat arts or prosthetic tools.
Last edited by FTZ35; Aug 19, 2020 @ 4:33pm
Nibbie Aug 19, 2020 @ 5:47pm 
In addition to jumping as suggested above, you should be able to run/dodge backwards as well, simply outranging the grab.
KeiwaM Aug 19, 2020 @ 5:53pm 
Yeah I beat it, I'm at the blazing bull now. But honestly, I don't think this game is for me. Fighting is far too intense, requiring way too many split second decisions from me that my mind just can't make. Jump, Dodge or Parry, I can't make that decision out from their animation, even with the warning of a red kanji. The only boss so far that I have found enjoyable to fight was Gyoubu Oniwa the horserider, and that's probably because even though I died loads of times, it was fun to come back and try again. He didn't require me to make these split second decisions, he required me to use timing to block his attacks that was clearly visible to me. Every other boss and miniboss so far has different moves and it makes it impossible to see what the hell is going on until you've died a few times. And sure, say what you will about a rewarding experience when you finally kill the boss, but this game just doesn't do that. It doesn't reward me for killing a boss, I don't feel accomplished. I get the thought process of "♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ finally, now I can move on towards the next boss that I'll have to learn". It took me (and I am not joking) one and a half hours to beat this ogre, because every time I thought I almost had him, he smashed me in to the ground and threw me off the cliff. This happened several times, even where I would have survived the initial hit.

Everyone is also talking like I probably have played Dark Souls or Bloodborne before, but I haven't. This is my first type of game like this, I came in with a mindset that this would be a challenging game that I would probably die a few times in and have several close encounters with death, but no. I just straight up die most of the time. Over and over again. I don't know if that's just the way this genre is meant to be played, but I don't feel the reward after an hour and a half of dodge, slash, repeat. Heck, even For Honor gave me more of a rewarding feeling, and that's saying something as the campaign of that game was terrible. It still made me feel like I achieved something after killing a boss in that game. Fights could last for well voer 5 minutes if not more, exchanging blows and using combat mechanics. In this game, I either find that i: Die within a minute, Die after 10 minutes where the boss is nearly dead, win after 15 mintues with less than an inch of life left. It's just not fun.

Sorry for the rant and thanks for your help guys. I appreciate it, but this game isn't for me. Cheers though.
Last edited by KeiwaM; Aug 19, 2020 @ 5:56pm
SohCahToa Aug 19, 2020 @ 9:04pm 
Originally posted by 32nd Cpl KeiwaM ラスムス:
Yeah I beat it, I'm at the blazing bull now. But honestly, I don't think this game is for me. Fighting is far too intense, requiring way too many split second decisions from me that my mind just can't make. Jump, Dodge or Parry, I can't make that decision out from their animation, even with the warning of a red kanji.

On the off chance you're willing to give this game another shot, and to take out the references to other Souls games, this game is very much a rhythm game. Your main method of fighting enemies should be aggression alternating with deflection, not dodging or jumping or blocking. You will get frustrated if you try to evade the enemy's attacks the majority of the time, because probably only 30% of all boss moves in this game are best handled with dodging or jumping, and the vast majority of those will warn you with the red kanji. Long boss fights that feel like you're just waiting for openings can be shortened to 2 or 3 minutes of aggressively attacking and deflecting every attack and killing them without reducing their health past 80%.

To enjoy Sekiro, try to focus on keeping up aggression on the enemy, because they are able to do much much more to damage you if you aren't attacking them, but, and this is where the rhythm comes in, the sound of an enemy blocking your strike and the sound of an enemy deflecting your strike are very clearly different. Try attacking with aggression until you hear the enemy deflect your strike, and then immediately deflect their counter-strike.

The "rewarding" aspect of this game, at least in my estimation, comes from learning how the fight system works, and trusting yourself to have the balls to watch their attack without reacting to it as early as possible, to know how to handle it, because they usually telegraph the attack before it lands, and you can genuinely deflect the vaaaast majority of attacks. Even the Blazing Bull, when it runs directly at you, you can deflect if you time it right. I feel, though, the Blazing Bull is best handled by chasing its tail. A lot of bosses can be handled with "alternate" strategies, and that's where the analytic aspect comes in. There is a boss much later on who I was having a lot of trouble with, (her name rhymes with Erupted Honk) until I slowed down my reactions, breathed, and rather than rushing in and dying over and over again, I prepared myself to take damage and die, and experimented with trying different responses to her attacks. I discovered that she was one of the bosses for whom deflecting was very inefficient, and that I should wait for the right moment to dodge under her attacks, and that shortened the fight immensely, because I now had a way of punishing her attacks without suffering any damage myself.

THAT was what was satisfying. Not brute-forcing my way through with deflection, dodging, and aggression. Learning how a boss operates and what they respond to builds the character of that boss. A boss that you can kill after a handful of attempts with the exact same method you killed every other boss isn't really all that challenging, it's kinda mundane, like a chore.

This game might very much not be for you, but if I had a dollar for every thread on here where someone said they gave up the game after 6-10 hours and then came back with a fresh perspective, spent a bit of time experimenting, and by the 15 hour mark, utterly adored the game, I would have enough money to buy this game again on sale.

I strongly encourage you to give this game another shot. It's NOT a game where simple brute-force effort rewards you, it's a game where analyzing and exploring and finding a variety of ways to handle a situation creates rewarding outcomes.

For what it's worth, I worried the game wasn't for me as well until I climbed Ashina Castle and beat the boss at the top (roughly 25-30% of the way through the game), and then everything just clicked for me. That took me about 15 hours, too, tbh. Stick with it, you'll be surprised how deep this game can be.
Last edited by SohCahToa; Aug 19, 2020 @ 9:08pm
I-Chi Aug 20, 2020 @ 1:40am 
Originally posted by 32nd Cpl KeiwaM ラスムス:
It took me (and I am not joking) one and a half hours to beat this ogre, because every time I thought I almost had him, he smashed me in to the ground and threw me off the cliff. This happened several times, even where I would have survived the initial hit.

...but I don't feel the reward after an hour and a half of dodge, slash, repeat. Heck, even For Honor gave me more of a rewarding feeling, and that's saying something as the campaign of that game was terrible.

My first Souls game was Dark Souls 3. There's this tutorial boss, Gundyr, which I could not defeat. After many tries, I thought I'll just play the same tutorial area over and over again, and die to him again and again, until I feel that the $$ I spent wasn't a complete waste.

So I did the tutorial area for about a week, a few hours each day. A whole week of dying to the tutorial boss. And one day, I beat him. I felt nothing: no happiness, no relief, no disappointment. I just stared at my computer screen, I didn't know what to do next. Then I thought: ok maybe I'll just continue for a little bit more.

I currently have 1500+ hours in DS3. Most of that is co-op. My favorite fight is Gael. There's this one time when I think a dev joined mid-fight: he had Japanese characters in his name, and he has this wide area Pyro spell that isn't part of the normal game. I stopped fighting for a while to stare (but forgot to take a screenshot). Also the host died, which was a shame.

I think all gamers should complete one of the Souls games sometime. The experience is unique.
Doc Aug 20, 2020 @ 5:08am 
Originally posted by Butt Stallion:
Originally posted by 32nd Cpl KeiwaM ラスムス:
It took me (and I am not joking) one and a half hours to beat this ogre, because every time I thought I almost had him, he smashed me in to the ground and threw me off the cliff. This happened several times, even where I would have survived the initial hit.

...but I don't feel the reward after an hour and a half of dodge, slash, repeat. Heck, even For Honor gave me more of a rewarding feeling, and that's saying something as the campaign of that game was terrible.

My first Souls game was Dark Souls 3. There's this tutorial boss, Gundyr, which I could not defeat. After many tries, I thought I'll just play the same tutorial area over and over again, and die to him again and again, until I feel that the $$ I spent wasn't a complete waste.

So I did the tutorial area for about a week, a few hours each day. A whole week of dying to the tutorial boss. And one day, I beat him. I felt nothing: no happiness, no relief, no disappointment. I just stared at my computer screen, I didn't know what to do next. Then I thought: ok maybe I'll just continue for a little bit more.

I currently have 1500+ hours in DS3. Most of that is co-op. My favorite fight is Gael. There's this one time when I think a dev joined mid-fight: he had Japanese characters in his name, and he has this wide area Pyro spell that isn't part of the normal game. I stopped fighting for a while to stare (but forgot to take a screenshot). Also the host died, which was a shame.

I think all gamers should complete one of the Souls games sometime. The experience is unique.

What made you push through DS3 if you felt nothing after Gundyr? I'm genuinely curious.
lazyoldman Aug 20, 2020 @ 6:31am 
This ragequit-like feeling is very common when you hit a wall in this type of game. It always worked for me to take a break for a few days and come back with a renewed sense of fun.

That said, Sekiro is an extremely fast game that some people probably don't have the reflexes for. It's the same for me and shooter games.
SohCahToa Aug 20, 2020 @ 7:59am 
Originally posted by thegreatnothing:

That said, Sekiro is an extremely fast game that some people probably don't have the reflexes for. It's the same for me and shooter games.

Yeah, I don't get it. I can beat my head against the brick wall of Souls games for hours and still want to pick it up and try again, because I feel like just getting better at the mechanics and learning the game is the key to actually getting good enough to breeze through the game with no effort.

Shooters it's just "Bang, you're dead." I don't get the appeal.
KeiwaM Aug 20, 2020 @ 8:15am 
Originally posted by thegreatnothing:
This ragequit-like feeling is very common when you hit a wall in this type of game. It always worked for me to take a break for a few days and come back with a renewed sense of fun.

That said, Sekiro is an extremely fast game that some people probably don't have the reflexes for. It's the same for me and shooter games.

Yeah, I'll probably give it another shot, but if a game makes me feel like uninstalling it within 5 hours of playtime, I sense that it isn't my type. I'll give it another shot though.
KeiwaM Aug 20, 2020 @ 8:19am 
Originally posted by Unfortunate Observer:
Originally posted by thegreatnothing:

That said, Sekiro is an extremely fast game that some people probably don't have the reflexes for. It's the same for me and shooter games.

Yeah, I don't get it. I can beat my head against the brick wall of Souls games for hours and still want to pick it up and try again, because I feel like just getting better at the mechanics and learning the game is the key to actually getting good enough to breeze through the game with no effort.

Shooters it's just "Bang, you're dead." I don't get the appeal.

See that's where I'm a bit different. I enjoy shooters sometimes. It's not my favorite genre, but I enjoy it.
When it comes to reflexes, I have the reflexes to react, I just don't know what to react with. If you take For Honor as an example, I could consistently both parry and deflect attacks that were 300ms because I knew what to do when the symbol showed up. In this game, it shows you the symbol and you then have to judge for yourself what to do, which is what messes me up. I'm a monkey brain, I can do what I'm told in split seconds, I can't make decisions that fast.
Evilcheesewheel Aug 20, 2020 @ 9:33am 
I just did hit and run tactics without locking on and beat the ogre the first time I fought him.
Originally posted by EvilCheeseWheel:
I just did hit and run tactics without locking on and beat the ogre the first time I fought him.
try use that against genichiro and say how good that gona be for you.
Evilcheesewheel Aug 20, 2020 @ 10:59am 
Originally posted by Snowy:
Originally posted by EvilCheeseWheel:
I just did hit and run tactics without locking on and beat the ogre the first time I fought him.
try use that against genichiro and say how good that gona be for you.
Yeah but genichero was easy enough to deflect that I didn't have to.
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Date Posted: Aug 19, 2020 @ 2:46pm
Posts: 64