Memory makes no sense

[Crowley42]

In the memory, Lady Butterfly and Owl team up to raid the Hirata estate so that they can gain the Divine Heir's power, this is made clear by the fact that you get a Sakura Droplet after killing Butterfly, which says that it "forms when an oath fails to manifest" or something like that. After this Sekiro kills Butterfly but what happens then? It is implied that Kuro saved Sekiro after he gets killed by Owl and the temple in which he fought Butterfly collapses, but where does that leave Owl? Did he just not find Kuro? Kuro seems to not remember ever meeting him when they talk at the top of tha Castle. Owl also seems oblivious to the fact that Sekiro had an immortal oath with Kuro, so did that oath form right after Owl killed Sekiro?

So tldr owl gets to Hirata a bit late to the party, finds Kuro gone and Butterfly already dead, then kills Sekiro for no reason? Why would he kill Sekiro if he doesn't know where Kuro is? Then he just heads back home after 5 seconds of searching, just in time to give Kuro a chance to save Sekiro?


What happens between the time window of Sekiro dying and Kuro saving him? On a related note, why did Owl take the cherry tree branch?

[Crowley42]

To add to the mistery, this whole memory is Kuros memory, so where was Sekiro all this time? Anayama remembers him being there, Kuro does, even Owl remembers him being there, he himself doesn't however, what is that supposed to mean?

[Jao]

Well, it is indeed a tough one. And we can only speculate as to what the hell actually happened.

So, my theory is that Lady Butterfly was an illusion the whole time. Note that when we go into Owl's memory, the easiest way to go into the Estate is NO LONGER up in flames. This makes me think that the flames were an illusion too, so that Owl could make for the secret temple quickly and abscond with Kuro while Wolf was busy going through the well. However, SOMETHING went wrong (hence the Sakura Droplet) and Wolf arrived in time, so Owl used an illusion of Lady Butterfly (which he conjured up in the first place so Kuro wouldn't recognise him) to fight him and then tried to go after Kuro, but he apparently hid himself too well. So Owl returned to the temple, hoping perhaps he'll find Kuro there, but he only found Wolf and killed him to get rid of the witness.

Wolf doesn't remember this because it didn't really happen to him. I think those memory-visiting sequences are a form of time-travel. The only problem is, while everyone seems to remember what Wolf did in Kuro's memory even before he actually goes there in the future, Owl is still alive despite Wolf possibly killing him later in Owl's version of the Hirata memory. Maybe it's because Owl's bell wasn't supposed to go into Wolf's hands?

[(Edgy) Asriel Dreemurr]

Genichiro and his men must have arrived after Wolf was stabbed and Kuro was hiding, so Owl had to flee. Then, Kuro resurrected Wolf before the two were taken to Ashina.

Or, Owl’s plan was to have Kuro take Wolf under the immortal oath so he could have influence over both of them later.

I also suspect Lady Butterfly was working against Owl trying to claim immortality for herself, or perhaps she actually is trying to protect Kuro from Owl. She also knew of Owl’s plan and believed Wolf was in on it.

[Crowley42]

I am not a big fan of the Lady Buttterfly is a fake idea.

After giving it a lot of thought, I am pretty sure I know what went down. Owl and Butterfly and the ministry's henchmen are working together to get Kuro, but when Sekiro appears Owl fakes his death as to not give away his involvement. Butterfly gets caught in the middle of establishing the oath with Kuro, the oath fails, forming the sakura droplet. Sekiro then kills Butterfly, Owl, knowing that Sekiro has seen Butterfly"s involvement decides to kill Sekiro. After looking into Kuros dialogue, it turns out he says "I remember you well" to Owl, even though he doesn't outright say that he saw Owl kill Sekiro, this probably means Kuro hid from Owl and then saved Sekiro.

This explains everything, from Sekiro being there, the Sakura Droplet, Sekiros death, Kuro avoiding Owl. The only missing link is Sekiro not remembering that night, which to me makes no sense.

It should also be pointed out that we are merely visiting memories and the true happenings of the night are not real, for example we can kill Masanaga in Owl's memory even though he is alive in the future and can be encountered at the great snake's shrine. So the memory with Owl certainly didn't happen, while the first memory with Butterfly is probably Kuro's or the old lady's memory of things.

Once again, this doesn't explain why Sekiro wouldn't remember that night but it ties up everything else. Anayama, Owl and Kuro remember Sekiro being there so he must have went through the events of the first memory, even if he was already dead by the time the second memory takes place. Who knows, maybe getting stabbed in the chest, bleeding out, dying and then having an entire building collapse on your corpse makes one forget.

[Crowley42]

I also think that Kuro, Wolf, the old lady and his son get out alive cause Genichiro and his gang get back to Hirata eventually.

I wonder if the large number of Monks being with the raiders has any significance btw...

[Crowley42]

Also, how did Lady Butterfly get into the hidden temple if Owl had the key... and why would Owl give the key to Sekiro then... maybe the plan was to get Kuro, but Owl wanted to sabotage the mission and take the dragon's blood for himself and had planned to kill Butterfly himself.

[Jao]

I still have a problem with this one. If Owl wanted to hide his involvement form Wolf, why then would he give him the key to the hidden temple instead of sending him on some wild goose chase elsewhere? Owl could certainly take Butterfly in a fight, so he didn't need to use Wolf for that.
Are the monks a huge number? I only remember three of them. That's barely half as many as the Lone Shadows (one in the pagoda + five in Owl's memory) xD
(started to write before your latest post; there's probably more than one key :P)

[(Edgy) Asriel Dreemurr]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Crowley42:

Also, how did Lady Butterfly get into the hidden temple if Owl had the key... and why would Owl give the key to Sekiro then... maybe the plan was to get Kuro, but Owl wanted to sabotage the mission and take the dragon's blood for himself and had planned to kill Butterfly himself.

Better question, how the heck did Inosaske, or whatever the name of the old lady’s son is, fight Lady Butterfly if the door was locked? Did she fight him as she entered?

[Crowley42]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von (Edgy) Asriel Dreemurr:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Crowley42:

Also, how did Lady Butterfly get into the hidden temple if Owl had the key... and why would Owl give the key to Sekiro then... maybe the plan was to get Kuro, but Owl wanted to sabotage the mission and take the dragon's blood for himself and had planned to kill Butterfly himself.

Better question, how the heck did Inosaske, or whatever the name of the old lady’s son is, fight Lady Butterfly if the door was locked? Did she fight him as she entered?

Probably, since the guy was outside, half dead. But in that case, did Butterfly even put the pillow back into its place to hide that she entered the temple eve though pretty much everybody but her henchmen were dead?

[(Edgy) Asriel Dreemurr]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Crowley42:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von (Edgy) Asriel Dreemurr:

Better question, how the heck did Inosaske, or whatever the name of the old lady’s son is, fight Lady Butterfly if the door was locked? Did she fight him as she entered?

Probably, since the guy was outside, half dead. But in that case, did Butterfly even put the pillow back into its place to hide that she entered the temple eve though pretty much everybody but her henchmen were dead?

It would have needed to be open when she arrived then locked and covered by someone else, likely Owl.

I definitely feel that Lady Butterfly is actually supposed to be working against Owl here and knows this is his setup, and suspects Wolf is in on it. The way she calls Wolf “Son of Owl” just gives this idea, plus she puts Kuro in a daze where he can’t give anyone immortality even if he wanted.

Basically Owl is playing them both. If Wolf loses, he could swoop in after and save Kuro himself, possibly getting the immortal oath (which was probably his actual plan). And if Wolf wins he can just bide his time and manipulate Wolf later (which is what happens).

It’s all just a set up so either Owl or Wolf can play the hero, and gain Kuro’s trust.

[nguyenquoctrungduc]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Crowley42:

Also, how did Lady Butterfly get into the hidden temple if Owl had the key... and why would Owl give the key to Sekiro then... maybe the plan was to get Kuro, but Owl wanted to sabotage the mission and take the dragon's blood for himself and had planned to kill Butterfly himself.

Owl knows that Butterfly is very strong. She masters illusion, which Owl wouldn't dare to fight against. At the same time, he wants that Dragon blood belongs to him only.
What is the way that could benefit him the most?
When there is a fight between 2 people, the third one will always be the most advantageous. No matter the outcome of the fight between wolf and butterfly, whoever wins must be pretty exhausted and injured. Owl is a witty and cunning shinobi, he for sure thought of this. That's why he handed sekiro the key and pretended not to be involved.
I agree with your point about Owl being dead twice though. That makes no sense. If owl died in the past under the hands of sekiro, no way he's still alive in the castle. Plus that no way sekiro could forget that night. He was backstabbed, resurrected, then fought Owl. How could Owl not find out Kuro when Kuro surrecting him?
Anyway, this is a fiction product anyway, plot hole of course should exist. It's similar to the thing that Wolf can't grow back his arm. What if enemies just cut down his head, isn't he just dead then? The arm thing would make no sense, given that wolf is immortal. Yet again, fictional product can't be perfect in its plot.

[Crowley42]

I suppose that makes sense, I also never thought about Wolf's arm being cut off being selseless.

[Bistro]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von nguyenquoctrungduc:

I agree with your point about Owl being dead twice though. That makes no sense. If owl died in the past under the hands of sekiro, no way he's still alive in the castle.

If you attack Owl's "corpse" in the memory, you'll see a bunch of rippling circles.

The same rippling circles that appear when Lady Butterfly summons her illusions in her boss fight.

[Хомяк. Новая игра!]

How Kuro gives blood to Sekiro?

[Crowley42]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Хомяк. Новая игра!:

How Kuro gives blood to Sekiro?

Seems to me like Kuro only needs to take someone into his "oath" to give them immortality