Was Sekiro a Reaction to Nioh?

[ChrisPharmD]

So when Team Ninja came out with Nioh, do you think FromSoft tried to show them who makes the better Japanese themed games?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to say they are comparable in any sense other than they are both set in Japan and they're both difficult action adventure games.

It would be kind of funny if it were the case. I don't necessarily think it is. Game development takes a long time, and Nioh is a relatively new game. So probably not. But it's a thought experiment.

[CMDR Shven]

They must have had the game started in development in some fashion before Nioh came out as you say, because development takes a long time.

It's also just not that abstract or unique of a concept in the first place. I remember having a discussion with my friend right before DkS2 came out wishing there would be a Ninja Souls. So it's totally possible this game would have existed more or less exactly the same as it is even if Nioh had never been made.

[stevo]

They've been looking to go in on their Tenchu IP for like a decade. It's more likely Team Ninja's Gaiden games had any influence on this more so than Nioh, which was basically a game stuck in some sort of development hell until they found the combat system they wanted because it was basically ripping off Dark Souls.

[ChrisPharmD]

Originally posted by CMDR Shven:

They must have had the game started in development in some fashion before Nioh came out as you say, because development takes a long time.

It's also just not that abstract or unique of a concept in the first place. I remember having a discussion with my friend right before DkS2 came out wishing there would be a Ninja Souls. So it's totally possible this game would have existed more or less exactly the same as it is even if Nioh had never been made.

True. What prompted me to pose this question was looking back at Nioh, I forgot that they had those purple gauges which were almost like the posture meter in Sekiro. I was watching an old video on Nioh and saw the purple gauge and remembered it, thinking "Oh crap. that's just like Sekiro."

I was just thinking it would be funny if FromSoft were like "Oh no, let me show you how it's done."

[ChrisPharmD]

Originally posted by bladechild:

They've been looking to go in on their Tenchu IP for like a decade. It's more likely Team Ninja's Gaiden games had any influence on this more so than Nioh, which was basically a game stuck in some sort of development hell until they found the combat system they wanted because it was basically ripping off Dark Souls.

Oh they made Ninja Gaiden? I never played those games.... except once.

Now, those were hard games.

[Watergun]

I agree with Shven. I do wonder why Fromsoftware as a Japanese company, why having western theme games: dark/demon souls and blood borne. With Sekiro, it does make sense now.

[CMDR Shven]

Originally posted by bladechild:

They've been looking to go in on their Tenchu IP for like a decade. It's more likely Team Ninja's Gaiden games had any influence on this more so than Nioh, which was basically a game stuck in some sort of development hell until they found the combat system they wanted because it was basically ripping off Dark Souls.

That is also totally possible, I forgot Nioh was in development for so long in various forms. It definitely seems like they just saw the success of the Souls model and decided to implement that. Although they still couldn't shake Ninja Gaiden because they had to have mission based gameplay and weird story structure.

[Aeiku]

Originally posted by CMDR Shven:

Originally posted by bladechild:

They've been looking to go in on their Tenchu IP for like a decade. It's more likely Team Ninja's Gaiden games had any influence on this more so than Nioh, which was basically a game stuck in some sort of development hell until they found the combat system they wanted because it was basically ripping off Dark Souls.

That is also totally possible, I forgot Nioh was in development for so long in various forms. It definitely seems like they just saw the success of the Souls model and decided to implement that. Although they still couldn't shake Ninja Gaiden because they had to have mission based gameplay and weird story structure.

They did. Nioh was originally planned to be a Musou game but later changed it for reasons I don't recall. However, in an interview the director or producer I forget whom, stated they designed Nioh to be difficult like the Souls games because of the huge success.

Originally posted by Watergun:

I agree with Shven. I do wonder why Fromsoftware as a Japanese company, why having western theme games: dark/demon souls and blood borne. With Sekiro, it does make sense now.

I'm unsure of Miyazaki's decision for choosing to make Soulsborne western themed, but they drew inspiration from European mythology and Miyazaki is a fan of dark fantasy so I guess that can be attributed.

[Indigo]

This game started development in 2015 after the release of bloodborne.

[ɸ It That Dwells ɸ]

I realize it's an alien concept to some, but you can make games that have similar themes and gameplay and not be inspired by or ripping off of another game with similarities.

[Arashi]

Nioh was in development for such a long time that it is doubtful.

[Witcher]

Originally posted by Zoe:

This game started development in 2015 after the release of bloodborne.

Really that long ago huh?

[Tr0w]

Originally posted by Aeiku:

Originally posted by CMDR Shven:

That is also totally possible, I forgot Nioh was in development for so long in various forms. It definitely seems like they just saw the success of the Souls model and decided to implement that. Although they still couldn't shake Ninja Gaiden because they had to have mission based gameplay and weird story structure.

They did. Nioh was originally planned to be a Musou game but later changed it for reasons I don't recall. However, in an interview the director or producer I forget whom, stated they designed Nioh to be difficult like the Souls games because of the huge success.

Originally posted by Watergun:

I agree with Shven. I do wonder why Fromsoftware as a Japanese company, why having western theme games: dark/demon souls and blood borne. With Sekiro, it does make sense now.

I'm unsure of Miyazaki's decision for choosing to make Soulsborne western themed, but they drew inspiration from European mythology and Miyazaki is a fan of dark fantasy so I guess that can be attributed.

Why would they design the game "to be difficult like Souls games" when they already make a more difficult series in the form of NG? It's obvious that parts of Souls they took were the bonfire, respawning enemies, and endless farming/grinding. And even those elements are much older than the Souls series.

And yeah just to echo you on the Western themes in previous Miyazaki games. He has said he drew inspiration from the likes of Berserk, and European mythology like Arthurian legend, etc. For world design he said BLAME was a big influence as well iirc, which would explain his hard on for labyrinth and maze like areas..

[Aeiku]

Originally posted by Spr1ggan:

Originally posted by Aeiku:

They did. Nioh was originally planned to be a Musou game but later changed it for reasons I don't recall. However, in an interview the director or producer I forget whom, stated they designed Nioh to be difficult like the Souls games because of the huge success.



I'm unsure of Miyazaki's decision for choosing to make Soulsborne western themed, but they drew inspiration from European mythology and Miyazaki is a fan of dark fantasy so I guess that can be attributed.

Why would they design the game "to be difficult like Souls games" when they already make a more difficult series in the form of NG? It's obvious that parts of Souls they took were the bonfire, respawning enemies, and endless farming/grinding. And even those elements are much older than the Souls series.

And yeah just to echo you on the Western themes in previous Miyazaki games. He has said he drew inspiration from the likes of Berserk, and European mythology like Arthurian legend, etc. For world design he said BLAME was a big influence as well iirc, which would explain his hard on for labyrinth and maze like areas..

I should have said Souls formula instead which borrows from the Tenchu formula before it and possibly another formula before that. Ninja Gaiden is hard, especially the SNES games, but I think Souls games are harder than the modernized Ninja Gaiden games. I found Nioh harder than Soulsborne and Sekiro. Beating the dlc on Way of the Nioh...man.

[Tr0w]

Originally posted by Aeiku:

Originally posted by Spr1ggan:

Why would they design the game "to be difficult like Souls games" when they already make a more difficult series in the form of NG? It's obvious that parts of Souls they took were the bonfire, respawning enemies, and endless farming/grinding. And even those elements are much older than the Souls series.

And yeah just to echo you on the Western themes in previous Miyazaki games. He has said he drew inspiration from the likes of Berserk, and European mythology like Arthurian legend, etc. For world design he said BLAME was a big influence as well iirc, which would explain his hard on for labyrinth and maze like areas..

I should have said Souls formula instead which borrows from the Tenchu formula before it and possibly another formula before that. Ninja Gaiden is hard, especially the SNES games, but I think Souls games are harder than the modernized Ninja Gaiden games. I found Nioh harder than Soulsborne and Sekiro. Beating the dlc on Way of the Nioh...man.

I've found what i've played of Nioh to be far harder than Souls as well. The Lightning Beast and that Samurai duel with the summoned dog for example i found more difficult than any of the bosses in DS1 outside of Bed of Chaos.

Why do you say the Souls formula borrows from the Tenchu formula? I've played 1-3 and i'll admit it's been a very long time since then but i don't remember Tenchu being remotely like Souls. It was mission based and Stealth focused with set characters.

With Sekiro though, the difficulty is strange and a bit all over the place. I'm finding some regular enemies punch hole in wall hard while some mini bosses and bosses easy. I had just thought i'd got the hang of of things with parrying, had a couple of attempts on the headless and got destroyed leaving me with no confetti left. So i thought i'd go back to the main path and get the castle done, i get inside and those blue samurai are tearing me apart worse than any of the bosses i've encountered.

[Goonshall]

I honestly really liked Nioh. I bought it to fill that Dark Souls itch, but it was different enough to, well be different. The only thing I didn't like though was that to do missions, you had to go to the map and select an area. One of my favorite things in FromSoft games is exploring the world and finding secrets. I think that was my only gripe with Nioh. I think Sekiro is honestly the better game, but Nioh is a great game anyway. Just my opinion.