Confused about what Emma said regarding Lord Issin's location

[Dweller Beyond the Threshold]

So I'm on NG+++ and I encountered something I never noticed before. After beating Genishiro on top of the castle, Kuro asked to go seek Ishin. Immediately after receiving this task, I went to talk to Emma and Sekiro automatically said that Issin is not in the Watchtower (I haven't even gone there yet).

Emma said that Issin is not in the watchtower right now. Instead, he is in a watchtower next to Ashina castle gate where I fought Oniwa. I was really surprised to hear this because this never happened on previous playthroughs and I never saw Issin outside of his watchtower room. So I went there, and saw the Tengu as usual, and Issin wasn't there. I searched around for a while and couldn't find Issin at all. So I went to Issin's usual location and he was there...

So I'm confused to as why this conversation even exists when it clearly isn't giving the player accurate information. Did I perhaps misread/misunderstand Emma's message? But even then why did Sekiro prompt that discussion by saying that Issin isn't in his room? It's just pretty weird all around, something I never noticed before.

[PlutonArioch]

Origineel geplaatst door Christoph:

Origineel geplaatst door Arioch:

Ok... who else would I be talking about?

It was just a reference to a specific fight

Am I supposed to guess what you are talking about? The OP said he has seen all the endings, and so have I. So I think mentioning the "specific fight" wont be a spoiler. I am not sure what that has to do with him being "more fit than ever" though.

Origineel geplaatst door Sokurah:

Btw i still don't understand how genichiro use isshin in the final fight?!

Genichiro is using the black mortal blade called the "open gate", for its ability to open a gate to the underworld. Genichiro is giving his live in exchange for that of his recently deceased adoptive grandfather. He comes back as he was when he conquered Ashina (the land), because that is what Genichiro wants him to do again.

I think he is not really on board with that though, but he seems to be forced to obey his adopted grandsons last wish. So its fair to assume that Genichiro did something to him to bind him to his will. Could just be part of the black blades power though. There is no clear answer in the game, as far as I recall.

[Chris]

Hm dont think ishin is younger there and i think he doesn’t die before the fight he uses genichiro as a vessel that’s what i thought but i also can’t remember everything

[PlutonArioch]

Origineel geplaatst door Christoph:

Hm dont think ishin is younger there and i think he doesn’t die before the fight he uses genichiro as a vessel that’s what i thought but i also can’t remember everything

He is lying on the floor dead. Emma sits next to him and tells you he died of his illness. He did have his sword in his hand, so he wanted to fight the invaders, but he died, because he was not as fit anymore as he once was. In fact he was quite ill.

He also has white hair the whole game, except for the intro cinematic (where he is shown winning the war at a time when sekiro was a young boy) and in the last fight after Genichiro. In both cases he has black hair. So yes he is quite obviously younger than he should be in that fight.

[Chris]

Origineel geplaatst door Arioch:

Origineel geplaatst door Christoph:

Hm dont think ishin is younger there and i think he doesn’t die before the fight he uses genichiro as a vessel that’s what i thought but i also can’t remember everything

He is lying on the floor dead. That means he died. Emma sits next to him and tells you he died of his illness. He did have his sword in his hand, so he wanted to fight the invaders, but he died, because he was not as fit anymore as he once was. In fact he was quite ill.

He also has white hair the whole game, except for the intro cinematic (where he is shown winning the war at a time when sekiro was a young boy) and in the last fight after Genichiro. So yes he is quite obviously younger than he should be in that fight.

Yeah i remember that he died because he was ill but how did he come back at the end?!So i assumed he faked his death or he made some ritual.White hair has nothing to say tho.In the end you can puzzle the story together for yourself and for me it’s either way and im pretty sure he could also kick your a right from the first meeting

[Sokurah]

Origineel geplaatst door Arioch:

Origineel geplaatst door Christoph:

It was just a reference to a specific fight

Am I supposed to guess what you are talking about? The OP said he has seen all the endings, and so have I. So I think mentioning the "specific fight" wont be a spoiler. I am not sure what that has to do with him being "more fit than ever" though.

Origineel geplaatst door Sokurah:

Btw i still don't understand how genichiro use isshin in the final fight?!

Genichiro is using the black mortal blade called the "open gate", for its ability to open a gate to the underworld. Genichiro is giving his live in exchange for that of his recently deceased adoptive grandfather. He comes back as he was when he conquered Ashina (the land), because that is what Genichiro wants him to do again.

I think he is not really on board with that though, but he seems to be forced to obey his adopted grandsons last wish. So its fair to assume that Genichiro did something to him to bind him to his will. Could just be part of the black blades power though. There is no clear answer in the game, as far as I recall.

Oh okay. You didnt had to mention ashina is the land tho. 😋😁

[PlutonArioch]

Origineel geplaatst door Christoph:

Yeah i remember that he died because he was ill but how did he come back at the end?!So i assumed he faked his death or he made some ritual.White hair has nothing to say tho.In the end you can puzzle the story together for yourself and for me it’s either way and im pretty sure he could also kick your a right from the first meeting

Being able to kick my A does not mean he was never more fit.
White hair has a lot to say. Especially when contrasted with black hair, and to answer the question of age, at a time when dying hair was not a common practice.
And while you can puzzle some things together for yourself, other things are quite clearly explained or shown in the game. For example, Isshin would never do heretic rituals to come back to life after death. He shows incomprehension at the mere thought that Genichiro is in possession of the black blade. Also, he has ordered Emma to help you, and he is helping you himself, against his grandson. So why would he do that if he is in the end fighting against you, on the side, and instead of Genichiro of his own free will? What kind of plan does he have in your mind?
Genichiro on the other hand would do anything he can possibly imagine to reach his goals. Kidnapping children (Kuro), foregoing his honour as Samurai in the tutorial fight (if you beat him), using heretical arts to beat you at Ashina Castle, using the rejuvenating sediment on himself to stay alive - culminating in sacrificing his own life to resurrect his grandfather (probably against his will).

I mean if you just want to ignore what is presented in the game, that's your choice, assume all you want, but its not canon.

Origineel geplaatst door Sokurah:

Oh okay. You didnt had to mention ashina is the land tho. 😋😁

Lol, sometimes I just try to be as clear as possible, to avoid confusion. Sometimes it is not necessary... sometimes it does not work...

[Mr Jt (Gog is king)]

Origineel geplaatst door Arioch:

Origineel geplaatst door Christoph:

Yeah i remember that he died because he was ill but how did he come back at the end?!So i assumed he faked his death or he made some ritual.White hair has nothing to say tho.In the end you can puzzle the story together for yourself and for me it’s either way and im pretty sure he could also kick your a right from the first meeting

Being able to kick my A does not mean he was never more fit.
White hair has a lot to say. Especially when contrasted with black hair, and to answer the question of age, at a time when dying hair was not a common practice.
And while you can puzzle some things together for yourself, other things are quite clearly explained or shown in the game. For example, Isshin would never do heretic rituals to come back to life after death. He shows incomprehension at the mere thought that Genichiro is in possession of the black blade. Also, he has ordered Emma to help you, and he is helping you himself, against his grandson. So why would he do that if he is in the end fighting against you, on the side, and instead of Genichiro of his own free will? What kind of plan does he have in your mind?
Genichiro on the other hand would do anything he can possibly imagine to reach his goals. Kidnapping children (Kuro), foregoing his honour as Samurai in the tutorial fight (if you beat him), using heretical arts to beat you at Ashina Castle, using the rejuvenating sediment on himself to stay alive - culminating in sacrificing his own life to resurrect his grandfather (probably against his will).

I mean if you just want to ignore what is presented in the game, that's your choice, assume all you want, but its not canon.

Origineel geplaatst door Sokurah:

Oh okay. You didnt had to mention ashina is the land tho. 😋😁

Lol, sometimes I just try to be as clear as possible, to avoid confusion. Sometimes it is not necessary... sometimes it does not work...

White hair doesn’t say anything but who cares it looks dope on many men anyway but still this game doesnt give you clear facts most of the time and his views can be canon because you don’t know it either how he came back.Sure he could make a ritual don’t know why you think that he never would do that.....so you believe all he said?.Its a fromsoft game only little things are pointing in one direction.And there are people which are more fit later than many years ago the only thing what would be against that is that he was ill....but was he really that ill?

[PlutonArioch]

Hey, believe what you want. If you think nothing is clear, then we are simply talking about different stories. I am talking about the story this game tells us, not the story you made up, loosely based on characters found in this game. Now if you have arguments based on facts found in game, put them forward, if it is "I just want to believe something else" then discussing it is pointless.

[Chris]

Origineel geplaatst door Arioch:

Hey, believe what you want. If you think nothing is clear, then we are simply talking about different stories. I am talking about the story this game tells us, not the story you made up, loosely based on characters found in this game. Now if you have arguments based on facts found in game, put them forward, if it is "I just want to believe something else" then discussing it is pointless.

Sure some things are pretty forward but there is also a lot of stuff which you can think off by yourself....i think thats what he meant

[(Edgy) Asriel Dreemurr]

Origineel geplaatst door Jt:

White hair doesn’t say anything but who cares it looks dope on many men anyway but still this game doesnt give you clear facts most of the time and his views can be canon because you don’t know it either how he came back.Sure he could make a ritual don’t know why you think that he never would do that.....so you believe all he said?.Its a fromsoft game only little things are pointing in one direction.And there are people which are more fit later than many years ago the only thing what would be against that is that he was ill....but was he really that ill?

The Black Mortal Blade (Open Gate) creates a gate to the afterlife so one who has died can return at their peak performance. Presumably the “gate” is a sacrificial cut, as we see Genichiro perform on himself. It is odd though that Genichiro does not seem to know that he is summoning Isshin from the dead, as he is saying how Ashina is doomed as he kills himself, but maybe it’s a translation error since retrospectively it also seems very out of character for him.

Also Isshin I suspect does not like dealing with heretical rituals because they were mainly why the Central forces hit Ashina as hard as they do during their invasion. The Interior Ministry is striking out of fear of the red eyes and rejuvenating waters instead of asking them to unite peacefully.

And also while FromSoftware tends to be vague with some details in the Souls games, Sekiro is mostly straightforward with its story. You have to look a bit for the answers, but they are there. And Isshin coming back from the dead and how it happened is actually explained through Isshin’s battle memory entries and a black scroll by Isshin’s room that describes the Black Mortal Blade.

[Chris]

Origineel geplaatst door (Edgy) Asriel Dreemurr:

Origineel geplaatst door Jt:

White hair doesn’t say anything but who cares it looks dope on many men anyway but still this game doesnt give you clear facts most of the time and his views can be canon because you don’t know it either how he came back.Sure he could make a ritual don’t know why you think that he never would do that.....so you believe all he said?.Its a fromsoft game only little things are pointing in one direction.And there are people which are more fit later than many years ago the only thing what would be against that is that he was ill....but was he really that ill?

The Black Mortal Blade (Open Gate) creates a gate to the afterlife so one who has died can return at their peak performance. Presumably the “gate” is a sacrificial cut, as we see Genichiro perform on himself. It is odd though that Genichiro does not seem to know that he is summoning Isshin from the dead, as he is saying how Ashina is doomed as he kills himself, but maybe it’s a translation error since retrospectively it also seems very out of character for him.

Also Isshin I suspect does not like dealing with heretical rituals because they were mainly why the Central forces hit Ashina as hard as they do during their invasion. The Interior Ministry is striking out of fear of the red eyes and rejuvenating waters instead of asking them to unite peacefully.

And also while FromSoftware tends to be vague with some details in the Souls games, Sekiro is mostly straightforward with its story. You have to look a bit for the answers, but they are there. And Isshin coming back from the dead and how it happened is actually explained through Isshin’s battle memory entries and a black scroll by Isshin’s room that describes the Black Mortal Blade.

That’s true there is more explained than in dark souls but there is still a lot of stuff not explained because it’s the players story and they give you the freedom to think about it by yourself typically from soft style.But i don’t remember some things because i didn’t played it for a while so i started a new playthrough.Its fascinating how less tries i need to finish the bosses now even after all this time i didn’t played^^