Give teutons the crusader knight as a unique unit

[Poliedro Toroidal]

With the recent patches we've seen the paladin being replaced by Savars with the persians.

It's been discussed how teutonic knights were mostly always mounted when fighting, but the unit essentialy lacks the mount (for balance reasons I suppose). With further editions of the game we got the crusader knight as a scenario exclusive unit.

Since teutons is a really weak civ wouldn't it make sense to buff them with such improvement? Even if it doesn't change much statwise it would be an interesting change in my humble opinion, at least from the costmetic and historical aspects. What do you think?

PS: I've accidentally posted this on the Total War: Shogun 2 discussion forum by accident, so it better be worth the topic lol

[KingKickAss]

I'm personally not a fan of replacing existing tech tree units with uniques at their capstone, but if its a thing that sticks, then it would be cool to see a Crusader.
I thought it would be cool if Jerusalem was added and they had the Crusader as their unique.

[Plokmijnuh]

Could work as a unique unit but it would probably have to be changed stat wise to be less of an anomaly to Paladin and Savar.

Crusader Knight stats: Health 100 ; Attack 18 ; Armor 4/4; Reload Time 2 secs; Speed 1.2; (special cannot be converted)

Paladin Stats: Health 160; Attack 14; Armor 2/3 ; Reload Time 1.9; Speed 1.35

Savar: Health 145; Attack 14; Armor 3/4; Reload Time 1.8; Speed 1.35 (Special +4 attack against archers)

Currently Crusader Knights are cool but the 100 HP on a Knight is underwhelming unless you modify it.

[DesertRose92]

What stats would you give the Teuton's Paladin replacement?

Right now it's already fairly different from a generic Paladin as it's slower, has more melee armor and is resistant to conversion.

[Plokmijnuh]

Postat inițial de DesertRose92:

What stats would you give the Teuton's Paladin replacement?

Right now it's already fairly different from a generic Paladin as it's slower, has more melee armor and is resistant to conversion.

So Crusader Knight kinda looks like a mounted Teutonic Knight to begin with so it does complement them and I agree with OP there. My point was just that at 100 HP that's more in line with a Light or Medium Cavalry as opposed to Heavy Cavalry. So Crusader Knight could become a UT tech to replace the Paladin upgrade. But my only issue is that the crusader knight is slower than standard Knights, and archer units counter teutonic knights really well. So having a slower moving Paladin could be annoying against HCA Civs.

So increase the HP. Elite Centurion fully upgraded is 155 base (175) with bloodlines. Standard Paladin is 160 base, and with bloodlines which Teutons have, they get 180 HP. Franks are an anomaly at 192 HP for Paladins. So I would go for a HP similar to Centurions like 170 or 175, slightly lower health but keep the 4/4 armor. Attack wise that stat value of 18 base is too high. Elite Centurion is 15. Paladin is 14. But seeing as Leitis is 16 base with ignoring armor. I'd go for 16 attack.

Crusader Knight Stats: 150 HP; 16 Attack; 4/4 armor; Reload Time 2: Speed 1.2 (allow it to be converted because Teutons already have resist conversion as a team bonus).

Cost: 1450 Food 850 Gold to Upgrade Cavaliers to Crusader Knights.

So Crusader Knight would be have more Armor and Attack than a Paladin. But attack slower and move slower in addition to having less health. Cost wise, I feel like the stat changes from Paladins warrants having the tech cost 150 more food and 100 more gold to research than the 1300 F 750 G for Paladin.

[Flakstruk]

You could keep paladon stats and just swap the sprite. That was a event mod a while back.

[jonoliveira12]

No.

They get Paladins, and it fits them more than Crusader Knights.

Teutons are the HRE, and the Paladins were the bodyguard of the first Holy Roman Emperor: Chalemagne.

Almost all Catholic nations had Crusader Knights, almost none had Paladins.

[Poliedro Toroidal]

Postat inițial de Plokmijnuh:

Postat inițial de DesertRose92:

What stats would you give the Teuton's Paladin replacement?

Right now it's already fairly different from a generic Paladin as it's slower, has more melee armor and is resistant to conversion.

So Crusader Knight kinda looks like a mounted Teutonic Knight to begin with so it does complement them and I agree with OP there. My point was just that at 100 HP that's more in line with a Light or Medium Cavalry as opposed to Heavy Cavalry. So Crusader Knight could become a UT tech to replace the Paladin upgrade. But my only issue is that the crusader knight is slower than standard Knights, and archer units counter teutonic knights really well. So having a slower moving Paladin could be annoying against HCA Civs.

So increase the HP. Elite Centurion fully upgraded is 155 base (175) with bloodlines. Standard Paladin is 160 base, and with bloodlines which Teutons have, they get 180 HP. Franks are an anomaly at 192 HP for Paladins. So I would go for a HP similar to Centurions like 170 or 175, slightly lower health but keep the 4/4 armor. Attack wise that stat value of 18 base is too high. Elite Centurion is 15. Paladin is 14. But seeing as Leitis is 16 base with ignoring armor. I'd go for 16 attack.

Crusader Knight Stats: 150 HP; 16 Attack; 4/4 armor; Reload Time 2: Speed 1.2 (allow it to be converted because Teutons already have resist conversion as a team bonus).

Cost: 1450 Food 850 Gold to Upgrade Cavaliers to Crusader Knights.

So Crusader Knight would be have more Armor and Attack than a Paladin. But attack slower and move slower in addition to having less health. Cost wise, I feel like the stat changes from Paladins warrants having the tech cost 150 more food and 100 more gold to research than the 1300 F 750 G for Paladin.

This is fairly good point. Nontheless I suggested this as a possible solution to teutons, despite the actual stats of the crusader knight.

They could just have different values between multiplayer and campaign, almost nobody would notice the difference and if they do it would be completely meaningless. What I want for teutons is to have a proper boost with what the game already gives us.

[Kyris]

You could also do a simple Model change for Teutonic Knight , could add a shield and make him look like the Ritterbrüder in Medieval 2 complete with winged helmet. Could potentially replace the Pally with a unique mounted version the Halbbrüder which is a Half brother version of the Ritter.

But this runs the risk of skewing the whole faction in game to over represent a knightly order rather than Germans as a civ so very much need to decide if you want to make it more Teutonic order or Germany

[Kasbfaäfad]

It's a nice idea. I think changing the sprites should suffice since the teutons paladin was quite unique already

[chaoticbalrog]

Postat inițial de Poliedro Toroidal:

Postat inițial de Plokmijnuh:

So Crusader Knight kinda looks like a mounted Teutonic Knight to begin with so it does complement them and I agree with OP there. My point was just that at 100 HP that's more in line with a Light or Medium Cavalry as opposed to Heavy Cavalry. So Crusader Knight could become a UT tech to replace the Paladin upgrade. But my only issue is that the crusader knight is slower than standard Knights, and archer units counter teutonic knights really well. So having a slower moving Paladin could be annoying against HCA Civs.

So increase the HP. Elite Centurion fully upgraded is 155 base (175) with bloodlines. Standard Paladin is 160 base, and with bloodlines which Teutons have, they get 180 HP. Franks are an anomaly at 192 HP for Paladins. So I would go for a HP similar to Centurions like 170 or 175, slightly lower health but keep the 4/4 armor. Attack wise that stat value of 18 base is too high. Elite Centurion is 15. Paladin is 14. But seeing as Leitis is 16 base with ignoring armor. I'd go for 16 attack.

Crusader Knight Stats: 150 HP; 16 Attack; 4/4 armor; Reload Time 2: Speed 1.2 (allow it to be converted because Teutons already have resist conversion as a team bonus).

Cost: 1450 Food 850 Gold to Upgrade Cavaliers to Crusader Knights.

So Crusader Knight would be have more Armor and Attack than a Paladin. But attack slower and move slower in addition to having less health. Cost wise, I feel like the stat changes from Paladins warrants having the tech cost 150 more food and 100 more gold to research than the 1300 F 750 G for Paladin.

This is fairly good point. Nontheless I suggested this as a possible solution to teutons, despite the actual stats of the crusader knight.

They could just have different values between multiplayer and campaign, almost nobody would notice the difference and if they do it would be completely meaningless. What I want for teutons is to have a proper boost with what the game already gives us.

Crusader Knights will most likely never replace Paladin in the Teutons tech tree.

[jonoliveira12]

This whole "replace Paladins with Crusader Knights" things stinks of wanting to make the Teutons SPECIFICALLY into the Teutonic Order, to then ask for more German civs, because "nOw ThEy dOn'T cOvEr ThE hRe AnYmOrE!"

The 12 Paladins of Charlemagne were the only Paladins in History and are PERMANENTLY TIED to the HRE and the Frankish Empire.
If anything, everyone else should lose the Paladins.

[chaoticbalrog]

Postat inițial de jonoliveira12:

This whole "replace Paladins with Crusader Knights" things stinks of wanting to make the Teutons SPECIFICALLY into the Teutonic Order, to then ask for more German civs, because "nOw ThEy dOn'T cOvEr ThE hRe AnYmOrE!"

The 12 Paladins of Charlemagne were the only Paladins in History and are PERMANENTLY TIED to the HRE and the Frankish Empire.
If anything, everyone else should lose the Paladins.

Right, although people will kick up an enormous fuss about it even in the best-case scenario. We don't need another 2018 drama, and in that one the Camel was renamed as Camel Rider and Heavy Camel got renamed to Heavy Camel Rider.

[Crossil]

I'm more inclined to either have Crusader Knights as a European regional for civs that went on crusades (like Italians, Britons, Franks, Teutons....), available from Monasteries and locked behind some kind of tech, or as UU of a theoretical Outremer civ.

Postat inițial de jonoliveira12:

Teutons are the HRE, and the Paladins were the bodyguard of the first Holy Roman Emperor: Chalemagne.

HRE is a state that encompassed Teutons, Franks, Bohemians, Italians, etc. Charlemagne and his Carolingian empire are treated as Franks first, compared to latter, primarily German, states. There's even a hero version, Frankish Paladin, which is most likely a reference to Charlemagne's Paladins.

Postat inițial de chaoticbalrog:

We don't need another 2018 drama, and in that one the Camel was renamed as Camel Rider and Heavy Camel got renamed to Heavy Camel Rider.

I wasn't around back then, but I gotta ask, was it really that bad? Seems like a most inoccuous thing ever.

[jonoliveira12]

Postat inițial de Crossil:

I'm more inclined to either have Crusader Knights as a European regional for civs that went on crusades (like Italians, Britons, Franks, Teutons....), available from Monasteries and locked behind some kind of tech, or as UU of a theoretical Outremer civ.

Postat inițial de jonoliveira12:

Teutons are the HRE, and the Paladins were the bodyguard of the first Holy Roman Emperor: Chalemagne.

HRE is a state that encompassed Teutons, Franks, Bohemians, Italians, etc. Charlemagne and his Carolingian empire are treated as Franks first, compared to latter, primarily German, states. There's even a hero version, Frankish Paladin, which is most likely a reference to Charlemagne's Paladins.

Postat inițial de chaoticbalrog:

We don't need another 2018 drama, and in that one the Camel was renamed as Camel Rider and Heavy Camel got renamed to Heavy Camel Rider.

I wasn't around back then, but I gotta ask, was it really that bad? Seems like a most inoccuous thing ever.

There are afr better things to introduce as European Regional units, than Crusader Knights.

Canequiers, Axemen, Macemen, Shieldbearers...

[chaoticbalrog]

Postat inițial de jonoliveira12:

Postat inițial de Crossil:

I'm more inclined to either have Crusader Knights as a European regional for civs that went on crusades (like Italians, Britons, Franks, Teutons....), available from Monasteries and locked behind some kind of tech, or as UU of a theoretical Outremer civ.



HRE is a state that encompassed Teutons, Franks, Bohemians, Italians, etc. Charlemagne and his Carolingian empire are treated as Franks first, compared to latter, primarily German, states. There's even a hero version, Frankish Paladin, which is most likely a reference to Charlemagne's Paladins.



I wasn't around back then, but I gotta ask, was it really that bad? Seems like a most inoccuous thing ever.

There are afr better things to introduce as European Regional units, than Crusader Knights.

Canequiers, Axemen, Macemen, Shieldbearers...

Axemen as in Melee Axemen instead of Throwing Axemen? Sounds good. What would their role be?