Conquistadors in El Cid Campaign

[Silver]

why havent they been removed yet? in many other campaigns the devs take care to lock out all the gunpowder techs explaining how the scenarios take place centuries before gunpowder, and while el cid clearly takes place in the 11th century, the devs didnt implement this.

"then why build castles?"

aside from the big defense bonus, cause you get access to saboteurs* in castle age which are way better at taking down buildings than lumbering rams and trebs in imperial as well as imperial age castle techs.

*touche, you got me. but i assume primitive forms of explosives did exist back in the 11th century, just nothing in mass produced gun form; or if push comes to shove, you can imagine the saboteur being a sapper who digs a tunnel that collapses under the building along with him

[jonoliveira12]

They are there because making you play without the Spanish UU, in the Spanish campaign, would be weird.

[FloosWorld]

I mean, the campaign itself takes liberties in its narration as the final mission is entirely based on the legend that Cid was fighting even after his death whereas in reality he died a rather normal and boring death.

[NeoTM]

This would be a question for Ensemble Studios 20 years ago, since they designed the Conquerors campaigns in 2000. I doubt anyone would be available to give insight into that decision, unfortunately.

[FloosWorld]

Publicado originalmente por NeoTM:

This would be a question for Ensemble Studios 20 years ago, since they designed the Conquerors campaigns in 2000. I doubt anyone would be available to give insight into that decision, unfortunately.

Basically, the only former Ensemble employee still talking about AoE is Sandy Petersen.

[Cunnra]

Publicado originalmente por jonoliveira12:

They are there because making you play without the Spanish UU, in the Spanish campaign, would be weird.

I still think it would been cool for gunpowder UU (conquistadors/janissaries) to be reworked and actually start out with bows/crossbows, but then gain firearms upon chemistry being researched.

[James3157]

El Cid is literally one of the least historically campaigns on AoE II: DE. Forgotten Empires must have figured since they want Aztecs and Mayans to be added that must include Spanish then why not include Spanish for El Cid campaign as well even if that makes zero sense since there were no Spanish yet during the lifetime of El Cid? Only problem is that mistake was made more than two decades ago.

Another problem is the naming. What would they have been named if not called Spanish? Castile and Leon?

[jonoliveira12]

Publicado originalmente por Cunnra:

Publicado originalmente por jonoliveira12:

They are there because making you play without the Spanish UU, in the Spanish campaign, would be weird.

I still think it would been cool for gunpowder UU (conquistadors/janissaries) to be reworked and actually start out with bows/crossbows, but then gain firearms upon chemistry being researched.

Would make no sense, because then you would have to make them upgeradeable with the Blacksmith, and the main selling point of Gunpowder units is that they have a huge attack, and need few upgrades.

There was also nothing called a "Conquistador" is El Cid's time. It is an Early Modern Era concept.

[jonoliveira12]

Publicado originalmente por James3157:

El Cid is literally one of the least historically campaigns on AoE II: DE. Forgotten Empires must have figured since they want Aztecs and Mayans to be added that must include Spanish then why not include Spanish for El Cid campaign as well even if that makes zero sense since there were no Spanish yet during the lifetime of El Cid? Only problem is that mistake was made more than two decades ago.

Another problem is the naming. What would they have been named if not called Spanish? Castile and Leon?

El Cid is not an FE campaign, it is an Essemble Studios original campaign.

There was no Medieval Spain, there were several kingdoms that became Spain in the 1500s.
What you call Spain was just Castille. Leon, Galicia, Navarre and Aragon had their own armies, languages, traditions, cultures, ancestries and trajectories.

The current Spanish civ is just Castille, it represents no other kingdom in Iberia, to any successful degree.

[James3157]

Publicado originalmente por jonoliveira12:

El Cid is not an FE campaign, it is an Essemble Studios original campaign.

There was no Medieval Spain, there were several kingdoms that became Spain in the 1500s.
What you call Spain was just Castille. Leon, Galicia, Navarre and Aragon had their own armies, languages, traditions, cultures, ancestries and trajectories.

The current Spanish civ is just Castille, it represents no other kingdom in Iberia, to any successful degree.

If Ensemble Studios had more carefully considered what the El Cid campaign should be based upon not only would they have made Castille separate from the Spanish, but they definitely would have had a different tech tree than the Spanish as well such as for example no gunpowder besides maybe the non elite cannon galleon that would most likely have later been replaced with dromon and might need some other unique unit as well besides the Conquistador as well. They could however still have had missionaries just like the Spanish. It probably was decided as well from Ensemble studios originally and not Forgotten Empires that age limit would be 1599 at the very latest just like on AoE III: DE the age limit probably ends at 1899 during the Imperial Age. The Spanish probably had gunpowder during the 16th century as well, but not during the time of El Cid.

[FloosWorld]

Publicado originalmente por James3157:

Publicado originalmente por jonoliveira12:

El Cid is not an FE campaign, it is an Essemble Studios original campaign.

There was no Medieval Spain, there were several kingdoms that became Spain in the 1500s.
What you call Spain was just Castille. Leon, Galicia, Navarre and Aragon had their own armies, languages, traditions, cultures, ancestries and trajectories.

The current Spanish civ is just Castille, it represents no other kingdom in Iberia, to any successful degree.

If Ensemble Studios had more carefully considered what the El Cid campaign should be based upon not only would they have made Castille separate from the Spanish, but they definitely would have had a different tech tree than the Spanish as well such as for example no gunpowder besides maybe the non elite cannon galleon that would most likely have later been replaced with dromon and might need some other unique unit as well besides the Conquistador as well. They could however still have had missionaries just like the Spanish. It probably was decided as well from Ensemble studios originally and not Forgotten Empires that age limit would be 1599 at the very latest just like on AoE III: DE the age limit probably ends at 1899 during the Imperial Age. The Spanish probably had gunpowder during the 16th century as well, but not during the time of El Cid.

I've read Ensemble considered adding the Habsburgs as a faction to Conquerors. Apparently, that idea got eventually reworked into the Spanish.

[jonoliveira12]

Publicado originalmente por FloosWorld:

Publicado originalmente por James3157:

If Ensemble Studios had more carefully considered what the El Cid campaign should be based upon not only would they have made Castille separate from the Spanish, but they definitely would have had a different tech tree than the Spanish as well such as for example no gunpowder besides maybe the non elite cannon galleon that would most likely have later been replaced with dromon and might need some other unique unit as well besides the Conquistador as well. They could however still have had missionaries just like the Spanish. It probably was decided as well from Ensemble studios originally and not Forgotten Empires that age limit would be 1599 at the very latest just like on AoE III: DE the age limit probably ends at 1899 during the Imperial Age. The Spanish probably had gunpowder during the 16th century as well, but not during the time of El Cid.

I've read Ensemble considered adding the Habsburgs as a faction to Conquerors. Apparently, that idea got eventually reworked into the Spanish.

The Habsburgs would have been a really stupid idea. A single royal family does not a civilization make.

[Quintem]

Publicado originalmente por FloosWorld:

Publicado originalmente por NeoTM:

This would be a question for Ensemble Studios 20 years ago, since they designed the Conquerors campaigns in 2000. I doubt anyone would be available to give insight into that decision, unfortunately.

Basically, the only former Ensemble employee still talking about AoE is Sandy Petersen.

Greg Street also mentions AoE from time to time, not as in depth as what Sandy does.

[Marco]

Publicado originalmente por James3157:

El Cid is literally one of the least historically campaigns on AoE II: DE. Forgotten Empires must have figured since they want Aztecs and Mayans to be added that must include Spanish then why not include Spanish for El Cid campaign as well even if that makes zero sense since there were no Spanish yet during the lifetime of El Cid? Only problem is that mistake was made more than two decades ago.

Another problem is the naming. What would they have been named if not called Spanish? Castile and Leon?

Publicado originalmente por James3157:

If Ensemble Studios had more carefully considered what the El Cid campaign should be based upon not only would they have made Castille separate from the Spanish, but they definitely would have had a different tech tree than the Spanish as well such as for example no gunpowder besides maybe the non elite cannon galleon that would most likely have later been replaced with dromon and might need some other unique unit as well besides the Conquistador as well. They could however still have had missionaries just like the Spanish. It probably was decided as well from Ensemble studios originally and not Forgotten Empires that age limit would be 1599 at the very latest just like on AoE III: DE the age limit probably ends at 1899 during the Imperial Age. The Spanish probably had gunpowder during the 16th century as well, but not during the time of El Cid.

I'd like to make a totally new civ to cover El Cid's timeframe and later until early 1400s, at least for campaign purposes. I would call them the Iberians and I would give them no gunpowder at all. Among the other problems (like tech tree), however, what language would they speak? I'd like if they had Catalan lines, so that they can represent Aragon during its wars against Genoa to conquer the Regnum Sardiniae et Corsicae in the Mediterranean sea.

El Cid campaign was made just to make use of the Spanish civilization, which was released on The Conquerors back then. IMO, neither the Saracens or Spanish can represent El Cid's time. Franks to represent the Catalan count Berenguer are out of place, as well.

As for their balancement, they could share some infantry attributes with Goths (Visigoths ruled Iberia before the Arabs), maybe mixing in good arbalesters and have decent cavalry. But maybe they would become just a generic civ, or a double of Britons or even Italians.

Publicado originalmente por FloosWorld:

I've read Ensemble considered adding the Habsburgs as a faction to Conquerors. Apparently, that idea got eventually reworked into the Spanish.

Now I get why you play as Spanish in Lepanto's historical battle.

[FloosWorld]

Ha, found it:

EASTERN EUROPEAN – the choice was between Huns, Swiss, Magyars, Habsburgs,
or Slavs (the latter being an all-inclusive group in which we’d put Poles,
Russians, etc.) We speedily decided the Swiss were too Renaissance, the
Habsburgs were too obscure (besides, I hate them. I think they were a bunch
of untalented reactionaries who looked funny). This left Magyars, Slavs,
& Huns. For better or worse we chose Huns. Here are the reasons why:

1. Huns were strong at the very start of the Dark Ages, so it drove home the
fact that this was NOT a “Renaissance pack”, and we wanted to make that clear.
2. Attila the Hun had major name recognition and a really cool campaign we
could use. There was no corresponding Russian or Magyar hero.
3. Since we were naming the pack “The Conquerors” we wanted to have as many
conquest-oriented civs as possible. We already had the Spanish and the Aztecs,
but we needed more, because the Mayans and Koreans, frankly, are not too famous
for their conquests. The middle-age Russians did very little invading of other
countries, to their everlasting credit, so we decided not to include them. The
Magyars did plenty of invading, but we decided for the Huns and against the
Magyars simply because of name recognition.

Note that with Eastern European, Sandy referred to the Central European architecture set that was already used by Teutons and Goths as there was no dedicated Eastern European set until Forgotten.

Source: https://aok.heavengames.com/university/game-info/general-info/conquerors-expansion/

[meleander]

Publicado originalmente por NeoTM:

This would be a question for Ensemble Studios 20 years ago, since they designed the Conquerors campaigns in 2000. I doubt anyone would be available to give insight into that decision, unfortunately.

Not really, as they are remaking campaigns, so they could remake those too.