Opinion: Shu might need a nerf

[James3157]

It is more obvious that Wu and especially Khitans need a nerf, but take notice that Shu currently have very good win rates on both team games and 1v1 for top 1% in addition to 1,200+ elo. I do not think they need as much of a nerf as Khitans, but my suggestion is to make their unique techs slightly more expensive/make them lose guilds from market (but they do get to keep "gold shaft mining" and "two-man saw"). The problem with Shu I think has to do with the fact they are collecting food in addition to wood from trees which the more skilled players are noticing the benefits of collecting food from trees being better than collecting food from farms. Combine that with lots of villagers towards late game and that would help explain why they are overall a descent civ for 1200+ elo. Removing guilds from Shu could potentially lower their win rates for lower elo players, but it could also do the same for higher elo players as well. Making the unique techs slightly more expensive could also be used as a way to nerf Shu, because both of their unique techs seem to be very useful overall and white feathered guards should not be underestimated with their unique tech even with their low attack.

[James3157]

To give an example of how Shu could be nerfed when it comes to unique techs Coiled Serpant Array cost is increased to 400 food and 450 gold making it one of the more expensive Castle Age unique techs. Bolt Magazine would be increased to 750 food and 850 gold. If one or the other is not enough of a nerf then combine the removal of guilds along with making the unique techs slightly more expensive.

The main reason for making Bolt Magazine slightly more expensive is not because of their war chariots, but because of its benefits for their lou chuans and archer-line. The main reason for making Coiled Serpant Array slightly more expensive is to make it take longer for Shu to reach Imperial Age if this were to be researched during early or mid Castle Age. Contrary to Hera's opinion I think that Shu are not a "mid tier" civ, but somewhere in between "top tier" and "mid tier" that has potential for being a top tier civ especially for 1200+ elo.

[Hexi]

James you don't play ranked, stay out of balance discussions please

[James3157]

Originally posted by Hexi:

James you don't play ranked, stay out of balance discussions please

It is not that hard to figure out how to play as Shu correctly regardless of whether it is single player or multiplayer and I have personally played as Shu on single player. Just make a lot of villagers , get a lot food from trees (which is a strategy I learned from watching Hera on multiplayer from YouTube), and mix in ranged units with siege, white feathered guards, and spearman-line mostly on land maps. Rather than tell me to stay out of balance discussions why not instead tell me as whether or not you agree that Shu should be nerfed in some way?

This topic should be discussed about sooner or later since apparently nobody else mentioned on Steam as to whether or not Shu should be nerfed slightly. Why should only civs with high win rates for low to mid elo be nerfed but not for 1200+ elo? Wu and Khitans are more obvious mainly because they have high win rates overall across all elo levels, but Shu should not be overlooked and them being a balanced civ is debatable.

[顯示為離線]

1) Devs almost never nerf civs good at low elo (while being ♥♥♥♥ at high elo).

2) "Its not hard to figure out" <<< typical Dunning-Krugger

3) You keep dodging ranked, refusing to face the fact that your game knowledge is awful.

4) You are a Sheldon Cooper who doesnt get a Nobel Prize.

5) You can never wake someone who pretends to be asleep I guess.

6) No Shu dont need nerf, at least not for now.

[James3157]

Originally posted by TheDiaper:

1) Devs almost never nerf civs good at low elo (while being ♥♥♥♥ at high elo).

2) "Its not hard to figure out" <<< typical Dunning-Krugger

3) You keep dodging ranked, refusing to face the fact that your game knowledge is awful.

4) You are a Sheldon Cooper who doesnt get a Nobel Prize.

5) You can never wake someone who pretends to be asleep I guess.

6) No Shu dont need nerf, at least not for now.

It depends on the civ. Despite their high play rates on multiplayer Mongols are more complex as a civ than Shu and it may be harder to figure out what strategies should be used for playing as Mongols, because they have more options to choose from with their tech tree units than Shu. With Shu it is more obvious, because they have weak militia-line beyond Feudal Age and below average cavalry. Despite them being labeled as a cavalry archer civ the Mongols are more complicated because of having more good options too chose from with tech tree than Shu. Also, why should Shu not lose "guilds" tech similar to Poles despite the civ bonus for collecting food from trees which benefits the most towards late game when combined with guilds?

[[Mosel] Kampfschwein]

4b) You are a Sheldon Cooper who doesnt get a highschool diploma.

[James3157]

Nobody has mentioned anything about guilds. Why should Shu keep this tech despite collecting food from trees which benefits them the most towards late game? Poles for example lost guilds, because they are able to collect gold from stone mines. Even Arabia maps from a more recent update are supposed to have more trees than they used to and Shu have noticeably high win rates as well overall on arabia maps across all elo levels on 1v1. If Wu gets nerfed I still think that Shu should get nerfed as well at the same time.

[Quintem]

James, my man. It's cool that you're interested in the theoretical side of balance discussion but you have zero practical experience. You putting value in Guilds, a tech that while it can have it's uses at times is not really an important balancing knob.

You want to also nerf their late game, where they're weaker typically speaking. Bolt Magazine is very expensive for what it does and barely nudges them into maybe top 5 archer civs. Other civs have stronger bonuses. Britons fire miles, Ethiopians have better DPS still. Mayan archers are dirt cheap. Vietnamese and Italians are more durable. All these bonuses are free. Shu's is not. 750 gold is not a small sum to cough up when you're pumping out archers.

Their infantry is nothing more than a meat shield for their archers. You want to nerf that with the UT? UT tech is not on my mind until late game.

Almost all over their power and win rate comes from tempo. Because everything is cheaper for them apart from Ballistics when it comes to archer techs. If anything was to be nerfed it would be that discount. How do I know this, from playing them a good few times in team games and being able to stay ahead of the curve of other archer civs.

Also Romans, Chinese and many others should also be nerfed along with Shu.

So, get your behind online, and play some ranked games. Then get back to us when you have some experience.

[BirbNotBird]

Man, do some research even if you don't play ranked or multiplayer. Guessing blind doesn't work for balancing. It's as bad as low ELO suggests limits of 5 monks.

[Kasbfaäfad]

I never played them but I think 3k civs are meh. So yeah, they need a nerf 11

[James3157]

Originally posted by Quintem:

James, my man. It's cool that you're interested in the theoretical side of balance discussion but you have zero practical experience. You putting value in Guilds, a tech that while it can have it's uses at times is not really an important balancing knob.

You want to also nerf their late game, where they're weaker typically speaking. Bolt Magazine is very expensive for what it does and barely nudges them into maybe top 5 archer civs. Other civs have stronger bonuses. Britons fire miles, Ethiopians have better DPS still. Mayan archers are dirt cheap. Vietnamese and Italians are more durable. All these bonuses are free. Shu's is not. 750 gold is not a small sum to cough up when you're pumping out archers.

Their infantry is nothing more than a meat shield for their archers. You want to nerf that with the UT? UT tech is not on my mind until late game.

Almost all over their power and win rate comes from tempo. Because everything is cheaper for them apart from Ballistics when it comes to archer techs. If anything was to be nerfed it would be that discount. How do I know this, from playing them a good few times in team games and being able to stay ahead of the curve of other archer civs.

Also Romans, Chinese and many others should also be nerfed along with Shu.

So, get your behind online, and play some ranked games. Then get back to us when you have some experience.

Shu have a discount for blacksmith and archery range, because they are an archer and siege civilization. Reduce that bonus even just a little by 5% or 10% and there would be a nerf more noticeable earlier than late game, but 10% bonus reduction might be too strong of a nerf for this civ. Despite my willingness to debate I am willing to accept constructive criticism especially from people who have had experience in ranked multiplayer. Romans have not gotten any significant nerfs probably because they have overall low play rates in comparison to many other civs and to give people more of a reason to buy RoR than only just the ported part of the dlc despite its mixed reviews on Steam.