Hussite wagon was a "forerunner to the modern tank?"

[Kamamura]

That must be the stupidest statement regarding history I have ever heard - and I have read a lot. Hussite wagons did not roam the battlefield, blasting the opposition from cannons and machine guns like 20th century and modern tanks did and do.

Sorry to break the news, but hussite wagons were just wagons - used to transport materials, supplies, weapons and wounded. They became famous, because in battle, hussites would chain them together to form a sort of field fortifications. Their opposition was mainly crusading armies composed of wealthy nobles gathered under the Papal banner, hoping for absolution, better standing with the Pope, plunder or perhaps territorial expansion, and that meant knights, i.e. heavy cavalry betting on the devastating lance charge few infantry formations could withstand and stay in fighting condition.

Hussites had mostly infantry, former peasants and craftsmen who rose against their lords to fight the feudal and religious oppression. What they lacked in training and equipment (mostly farm and crafting tools modified for battle, flails, war scythes, various polearms, etc), but also crossbows, arbalests, and early gunpowder weapons - hand cannons, small field guns, bombards, etc.

Such force needed protection against the devastating heavy cavalry charge - and the Wagenburg provided just that, a fortification from which the infantry could shoot at the charging cavalry while avoiding being routed. But tanks - no. Hussite wagons were no tanks in any sense of the word. Zizka once used wagons loaded with stones to disrupt the ranks of the advancing enemy - still, tank is a long stretch.

[Pengbumstot]

I agree: From a historical standpoint, this is pure bs.
I wouldn't give too much thought about those flavour texts though. It's written by PR people and they are generally quite ignorant towards history. "Medieval Tank" is just too nice of a buzzword to not include :P

Reminds me of how they included similar wagons into Stronghold Crusader 2. There they were arguably more realistic since they were open top and relied on the crew for "firepower"... they were still basically medieval ghetto-drive-by-shooters and completely OP. Also seemingly driven by a modern petrol engine since the pulling animals (oxen/horses?) were missing.

But from the games perspective a more realistic Wagenburg/Tabor/Wagon circle/whatever is too static of a concept.... Compare it to how mobile the siege works in general and how they decided to implement the Korean War wagon, which would historically be a similar concept to the Wagenburg. The original The Conquerors manual had those historical descriptions (often bs but nice flavour) in addition to the game-relevant description. Here for the Korean War Wagon:
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We have hints from scant records that the Koryo were innovative warriors, perhaps being the first to use rockets in combat and carriages of some type. Trains of these wagons could be arranged into temporary fortifications in open areas, providing a mobile, yet substantial, defensive position against mounted enemies. So became the war wagon, a classic chariot with scythed blades and mobile forts from which archers could fire with some protection.
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Basically would look like this (from the "Realms" mod for AOE 2 TC): https://media.moddb.com/images/mods/1/28/27888/Tabors.png

Would be cool to represent it as multiple carts, drive them somewhere and unpack into a makeshift structure that can be garrisoned to then shoot mixed missiles (arrows, shot, cannonballs) and maybe even have a melee attack (simulating polearm users from inside the Wagenburg).
But I guess that's too novel for the team and they went the safer route fitting the already implemented UUs.

[Lilim]

Marko님이 먼저 게시:

...with trebuchet-like assembling mechanic.

I like that idea.

A wagon pulled by horses which then "unpacks" like a Trebuchet and becomes stationary (the horses disappear when unpacked). It could have two soldiers armed with either crossbows or hand cannons on top.

The current UU looks more like the German A7V tank from WW1 .


The Trebuchet should also be pulled by horses when packed and it should have a crew building and operating it.

It would look much better if siege weapons were not self-moving. There should be 2 guys pushing the Mangonel/Onager around and at least 1 guy operating the Scorpion (similar to the guy pushing the Bombard Cannon).

[Novi]

Lilim님이 먼저 게시:

It would look much better if siege weapons were not self-moving. There should be 2 guys pushing the Mangonel/Onager around and at least 1 guy operating the Scorpion (similar to the guy pushing the Bombard Cannon).

The problem with siege being pulled/pushed is that any turn will look super weird as the people basically just teleport around.

Only way it would kind of work is siege being pushed from the side.

[Bran Mak Morn]

Lilim님이 먼저 게시:

The current UU looks more like the German A7V tank from WW1 :hp_kyu:.

looool, now i can't unsee it.

[Pengbumstot]

Novi님이 먼저 게시:

The problem with siege being pulled/pushed is that any turn will look super weird as the people basically just teleport around.
Only way it would kind of work is siege being pushed from the side.

Well, they made it work for the bombard cannon...but yeah, the guy is pretty much one with the cannon while pushing it ^^

[_WALT_]

Mike Empires made a nice video about them.

[Gorilianul]

Does Wagenburg tactics affect the Hussite Wagon? They are slow and tbh would prefer using hand cannons in their place. Their are good for shielding units against ranged units, make 4-5, not more. On the other hand the houfnice does a great job in it's place.

[FloosWorld]

Gorilianul님이 먼저 게시:

Does Wagenburg tactics affect the Hussite Wagon? They are slow and tbh would prefer using hand cannons in their place. Their are good for shielding units against ranged units, make 4-5, not more. On the other hand the houfnice does a great job in it's place.

Afaik Hussite is Siege so it shouldn't be affected by that tech

[mickeyjim2]

FloosWorld님이 먼저 게시:

Gorilianul님이 먼저 게시:

Does Wagenburg tactics affect the Hussite Wagon? They are slow and tbh would prefer using hand cannons in their place. Their are good for shielding units against ranged units, make 4-5, not more. On the other hand the houfnice does a great job in it's place.

Afaik Hussite is Siege so it shouldn't be affected by that tech

They are a gunpowder unit so they are affected

[Gorilianul]

FloosWorld님이 먼저 게시:

Gorilianul님이 먼저 게시:

Does Wagenburg tactics affect the Hussite Wagon? They are slow and tbh would prefer using hand cannons in their place. Their are good for shielding units against ranged units, make 4-5, not more. On the other hand the houfnice does a great job in it's place.

Afaik Hussite is Siege so it shouldn't be affected by that tech

Well it's pretty much a useless upgrade otherwise.

mickeyjim2님이 먼저 게시:

FloosWorld님이 먼저 게시:

Afaik Hussite is Siege so it shouldn't be affected by that tech

They are a gunpowder unit so they are affected

Are they counted as organ guns are?

[FloosWorld]

Gorilianul님이 먼저 게시:

FloosWorld님이 먼저 게시:

Afaik Hussite is Siege so it shouldn't be affected by that tech

Well it's pretty much a useless upgrade otherwise.

mickeyjim2님이 먼저 게시:

They are a gunpowder unit so they are affected

Are they counted as organ guns are?

Yep pretty much same counters