Hussite Wagon worst unique unit in the game?

[poke_ravi]

Their bonuses are offset by their drawbacks. It's so slow and vulnerable not only to cavalry but gets demolished by other siege. Maybe if the extra damage from bombard cannons and onagers was reduced they would be somewhat decent but right now it's probably one of the worst UUs in the game.

[bantewon]

Halberdier + Hussite Wagon + FU Trash Monk with Redemption
How do you stop this combo ffs?

[jonoliveira12]

Escrito originalmente por bantewon:

Halberdier + Hussite Wagon + FU Trash Monk with Redemption
How do you stop this combo ffs?

Onagers.
Rams + Skirms.
Bombard Cannons + Hussars.

Hussite Wagons are Siege units, so they take a huge amount of Bonus Damage from Rams and Bombard Cannons.
Halbs take extra damage from Skirms, and Monks are useless unless there are any valuable Gold units to covert.
Onagers will just flatten Hussite Wagons, Halbs and Monks, with Attack Ground command.

If your civ has good Champs, or you are playing Malay, they will also do the trick, since you can spam them easier than the Wagons can kill them, and they go through Monks and Halbs, like a hot knife through butter.

Bohemians is just that civ, that was designed to break the Crossbow-Knight Meta.

[Avyra]

all units behind the wagon take less damage which is a nice bonus

[jonoliveira12]

Escrito originalmente por Avyra:

all units behind the wagon take less damage which is a nice bonus

Does not work for Mangonel projectiles.

[mrmagma]

Purely according to historical accuracy. Hussite wagons were never siege weapons and their greatest strength and advantage was against cavalry of any kind and heavy foot swordsmen. Heavy cavalry (knights) should suffer the greatest damage from wagons even at close range, and light cavalry even greater. The Wagenburg fortress was only overcome with the improvement of firearms in the 16th century. Thus, other cannons and catapults should have a great advantage over the wagons. Cavalry, and any cavalry, on the other hand, a huge disadvantage. The Hussite wagons were indeed such tanks, but more likely with a distinct defensive position. At a distance, the crew fired hand cannons (whistles etc.), howitzers and tarasniks; at close range, the cavalry was decimated by flails, scythes and voulges and glaives (halberds), plus the crossbows and slingshots of child warriors. As soon as the enemy faltered, then from the open wall came a host of foot warriors, mostly with spiked flails, all was finished with the light Hussite cavalry. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRta7ltEsNY

[jonoliveira12]

Escrito originalmente por mrmagma:

Purely according to historical accuracy. Hussite wagons were never siege weapons and their greatest strength and advantage was against cavalry of any kind and heavy foot swordsmen. Heavy cavalry (knights) should suffer the greatest damage from wagons even at close range, and light cavalry even greater. The Wagenburg fortress was only overcome with the improvement of firearms in the 16th century. Thus, other cannons and catapults should have a great advantage over the wagons. Cavalry, and any cavalry, on the other hand, a huge disadvantage. The Hussite wagons were indeed such tanks, but more likely with a distinct defensive position. At a distance, the crew fired hand cannons (whistles etc.), howitzers and tarasniks; at close range, the cavalry was decimated by flails, scythes and voulges and glaives (halberds), plus the crossbows and slingshots of child warriors. As soon as the enemy faltered, then from the open wall came a host of foot warriors, mostly with spiked flails, all was finished with the light Hussite cavalry. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRta7ltEsNY

AoE2 has NEVER been historically accurate, or pretended to be, in any capacity.

Woad Raiders were Britons from the Iron Age, not Medieval Scotts or IrisH, and Mamelukes did not ride Camels or throw Scimitars.

AoE2, never even pretended to be accurate, at all!

[mrmagma]

OKAY. I'm not complaining. I like that they included the Hussites at all. And there must have been some simplification in the case of the Hussite wagons. Moreover, I understand that they had to weigh the advantages and disadvantages of each unit with respect to the existing system. I just don't like that they're (wagons) in such disarray. They should automatically form a continuous line (wall) when they stop. :-)

[jonoliveira12]

Escrito originalmente por mrmagma:

OKAY. I'm not complaining. I like that they included the Hussites at all. And there must have been some simplification in the case of the Hussite wagons. Moreover, I understand that they had to weigh the advantages and disadvantages of each unit with respect to the existing system. I just don't like that they're (wagons) in such disarray. They should automatically form a continuous line (wall) when they stop. :lunar2019coolpig: :-)

In an interview, taht ios still up on Youtube, Cysion explained that they went through many designs for the Hussite Wagon, but none of them were actually playable in a level taht you would expect for AoE2, and this was by far the best design that they experimented with.

They tried deployables, garrisoned with Ranged units to attack, auto-wall forming... players just did not use them, because they did not fit the formation-based micro gameplay of AoE2.

This game already has a way in which things are supposed to play. Trying to reinvent teh wheel, will only make either broken designs, or underwhelming ones.

You do not make mini-fortresses in AoE2 gameplay, with your units, you send formations out and micro your Knights or Crossbows, while your Infantry meatshields and your Siege no-brainer just attack buildings or low HP units.

Deployable Wagons were too static, APC Wagons too pop-intensive. Tank Wagons was the only thing that worked, and made players actually want to train the unit.

[Elriadon]

They are actually really good. They get bonus damage against rams and can easily outrun mangonel projectiles. The thing is, they are more of a unit to be combine with other units than something you spam.

[jonoliveira12]

Escrito originalmente por Darel:

They are actually really good. They get bonus damage against rams and can easily outrun mangonel projectiles. The thing is, they are more of a unit to be combine with other units than something you spam.

Rams still counter them, easily. Hussite Wagons only tickle Rams, while if the Rams make contact, a Single Capped Ram can easily take out 10 Elite HWs.

It is a similar case to Organ Guns, which are also terrible against Rams.

[Elriadon]

Escrito originalmente por jonoliveira12:

Escrito originalmente por Darel:

They are actually really good. They get bonus damage against rams and can easily outrun mangonel projectiles. The thing is, they are more of a unit to be combine with other units than something you spam.

Rams still counter them, easily. Hussite Wagons only tickle Rams, while if the Rams make contact, a Single Capped Ram can easily take out 10 Elite HWs.

It is a similar case to Organ Guns, which are also terrible against Rams.

Sure, if the rams can catch them. Similar to Cavalry Archers vs Spearmen. But like I said, that's why you combo them with other units. Like Halbs or Champions. Or convert the rams with monks. They are a very good unit.

[MFX_Media]

No, it's not. It's a special kind of unit, a shortbus of doom so to speak. If you can't use a unit effectively, but others can, it's not the unit that makes it. It's your skill with it. Git gud.

[mrmagma]

Escrito originalmente por jonoliveira12:

Escrito originalmente por mrmagma:

OKAY. I'm not complaining. I like that they included the Hussites at all. And there must have been some simplification in the case of the Hussite wagons. Moreover, I understand that they had to weigh the advantages and disadvantages of each unit with respect to the existing system. I just don't like that they're (wagons) in such disarray. They should automatically form a continuous line (wall) when they stop. :-)

In an interview, taht ios still up on Youtube, Cysion explained that they went through many designs for the Hussite Wagon, but none of them were actually playable in a level taht you would expect for AoE2, and this was by far the best design that they experimented with.

They tried deployables, garrisoned with Ranged units to attack, auto-wall forming... players just did not use them, because they did not fit the formation-based micro gameplay of AoE2.

This game already has a way in which things are supposed to play. Trying to reinvent teh wheel, will only make either broken designs, or underwhelming ones.

You do not make mini-fortresses in AoE2 gameplay, with your units, you send formations out and micro your Knights or Crossbows, while your Infantry meatshields and your Siege no-brainer just attack buildings or low HP units.

Deployable Wagons were too static, APC Wagons too pop-intensive. Tank Wagons was the only thing that worked, and made players actually want to train the unit.

---------------------------
I get it. I can understand the simplification of the wagon into a rolling, firing tank. After all, Jan Žižka did use these vehicles offensively. So it's not that unhistorical. I just don't see why the wagons don't line up on their own after reaching the location, unless you send them elsewhere again, i.e. they don´t automatically create a classic wagon wall. I think it could at least be tried without a big impact to the game. That would be aesthetically better, and also correct, better protection of the units behind the Wagenburg. See the movie trailer. BTW, the Hussite battle song in the video is a true Czech Hussite original from the 15th century. In the late stages of the Hussite Revolution, the crusader knights fled the field as soon as they heard this song. In chronicles it is written. Have a nice day.

[Ellipsis...]

I have noticed that a few gunpowder units, like the HW, have + 2/3 or more against rams, is there actually a point to that, considering the ram has a phenomenal amount of pierce resistance?

[yuzhonglu]

They're war wagons that are good against skirms and halbs, and can't be converted without redemption.

This makes them pretty damn good. Many of the usual counters to war wagons don't work against these things.

And if they go onagers, you got bombards.