Poles worst civ in game

[Tigga]

Broken in every way .. what a joke ..

[Tigga]

İlk olarak yuzhonglu tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak RageEpileptic tarafından gönderildi:

because starting from 500f 300g tech from castle is kinda hard to pull off when you are harrased in fa.

So just build knights until you're not harassed before getting the tech. And Obuchs aren't that good at stopping harassment since they're SLOW.

Let's say you're being harassed by archers or enemy knights. Why would you ever use an Obuch instead of a knight? Besides, you should have a Castle already, which should stop most of the harassment.

if get hard raided by a real human opponent mining stone in fuedal age isnt going to let u get to castle age with good economy if u are making towers to defend and spears then you are taking villager off resources to spend time building and wasting resources that u need for the castle and making it take way longer to get to caslte age while you enemy has all vils making resources and has army and is going be up before you with army that can be upgraded..

if you play vs much weaker opponents or stupid ai or maybe arena or noobie map like michi ... seriously stupid reply and not viable . just like making knights before you get the cheap knight tech will mean u wont be able to afford the cheap knight tech ... which is the entire point cheap knights are too expensive to achieve vs REAL opponents. and come too late

[yuzhonglu]

They also get a solid early food bonus like the Franks so you'll be ahead in econ even if we ignore Szatel tech. Even if we ignore the tech completely, the Poles are a solid knight OR archer civ in Castle and imperial they get arbalests and all the important upgrades.

You can just play it like a standard Knight Civ until you're near Imperial and then get Szatel. Their econ bonuses are solid and early. They would also make one hell of a tower rush civ.

[RightClickClassic]

İlk olarak yuzhonglu tarafından gönderildi:

They also get a solid early food bonus like the Franks so you'll be ahead in econ even if we ignore Szatel tech. Even if we ignore the tech completely, the Poles are a solid knight OR archer civ in Castle and imperial they get arbalests and all the important upgrades.

They certainly dont get all important archer upgrades in Imp when you dont have ring archer armor to help against other archers.
Dont even get a bonus for archers either.
Lol without the food bonus what will be left is 1 economy bonus, not enough vs other civs.

[yuzhonglu]

Well fine, but they do get the food bonus so their econ bonuses are significant. Put four villagers on stone and that's like having two extra villagers, which is equivalent to Malay bonus, and they have food bonus on top of it.

And their archers are serviceable. The last armor upgrade for archers isn't a big deal (though it is a big deal for skirms). In archer wars when microed archers get one-shotted anyways.

[RightClickClassic]

İlk olarak yuzhonglu tarafından gönderildi:

Well fine, but they do get the food bonus so their econ bonuses are significant. Put four villagers on stone and that's like having two extra villagers, which is equivalent to Malay bonus, and they have food bonus on top of it.

And their archers are serviceable. The last armor upgrade for archers isn't a big deal (though it is a big deal for skirms). In archer wars when microed archers get one-shotted anyways.

I get where ur coming from and understand to a degree.

But keep in mind stone wont feed ur family and more often than not u want to mine purely gold to get an army up fast.

If u go for a mainly castles approach sure then Poles suit you well.

But you dont aim with you 40 archers against one single unit unless its elephant maybe. You always patrol attack. And thats why their armor will matter, I say even more than for skirms that get more bonus.

Maybe devs will still give them Ring Archer Armor, can only hope.

[Tigga]

imagine infantry civ that has a UU as a cav unit and doesnt have champions ..

this is equal to polish civ !!

and worse it doesnt have final armour for it longswords :( what kinda civ is poland suppossed to be ? a FARMING civ ??

[yuzhonglu]

They're similar to the Franks, except they're also one of the best tower rush civs in the game.

[Tintantatornin]

İlk olarak Crazy Cat Man tarafından gönderildi:

imagine infantry civ that has a UU as a cav unit and doesnt have champions ..

this is equal to polish civ !!

and worse it doesnt have final armour for it longswords :( what kinda civ is poland suppossed to be ? a FARMING civ ??

The only infantry civs w/o Champs are Bulgarians and Malay, so not many to compare with. Bagains on one making a poor man's TK and Forced Levy on another making trash 2h sword.

An interesting comparison could be Malians, they are kinda "meta" an infantry civ with no Halbs, Farimba giving them some of the strongest Cavalry, but no Paladins

Edit: Malians don't get Hussar upgrade either, lol, but their fully upgraded Light cav kills a FU generic Hussar

[𝔫𝔢𝔬𝔫]

İlk olarak yuzhonglu tarafından gönderildi:

They're similar to the Franks, except they're also one of the best tower rush civs in the game.

Except that their Late Game is economically unviable, especially in Team Games.

I don't even know why the Poles are specified as a Cavalry civ when they're clearly not.

[Moist Butt]

İlk olarak Cloud tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak yuzhonglu tarafından gönderildi:

They're similar to the Franks, except they're also one of the best tower rush civs in the game.

I don't even know why the Poles are specified as a Cavalry civ when they're clearly not.

If they aren't a cav civ than what are they? All military bonuses are literally cav related so idk maybe it make sense to put them as a cav civ?

Szlachta privileges: knight -60% gold
Lechitic legacy: Scout line deals trample damage
Team bonus: Scout line + 1 att vs archer
Get access to winged hussar

idk looks to me like they are a cav civ, but please explain how they clearly aren't a cav civ. Please explain what type of civ they fall under and provide some logical reasoning.

[𝔫𝔢𝔬𝔫]

İlk olarak Moist Butt tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak Cloud tarafından gönderildi:

I don't even know why the Poles are specified as a Cavalry civ when they're clearly not.

If they aren't a cav civ than what are they? All military bonuses are literally cav related so idk maybe it make sense to put them as a cav civ?

Szlachta privileges: knight -60% gold
Lechitic legacy: Scout line deals trample damage
Team bonus: Scout line + 1 att vs archer
Get access to winged hussar

idk looks to me like they are a cav civ, but please explain how they clearly aren't a cav civ. Please explain what type of civ they fall under and provide some logical reasoning.

Well that's fair. Maybe I'm biased as I expect a "Cavalry civ" not to be just a trash-cavalry civ, due to missing both Plate Barding and the Paladin upgrade or a comparable cav UU as a substitute.

[Moist Butt]

İlk olarak Cloud tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak Moist Butt tarafından gönderildi:

If they aren't a cav civ than what are they? All military bonuses are literally cav related so idk maybe it make sense to put them as a cav civ?

Szlachta privileges: knight -60% gold
Lechitic legacy: Scout line deals trample damage
Team bonus: Scout line + 1 att vs archer
Get access to winged hussar

idk looks to me like they are a cav civ, but please explain how they clearly aren't a cav civ. Please explain what type of civ they fall under and provide some logical reasoning.

Well that's fair. Maybe I'm biased as I expect a "Cavalry civ" not to be just a trash-cavalry civ, due to missing both Plate Barding and the Paladin upgrade or a comparable cav UU as a substitute.

I get where you are coming from. Most ppl think of fully upgraded paladin when they think of cav civ, but the devs designed them to be more quantity than quality. I mean berbers are kinda in the same situation as them, but they do get that final armor. The main issue is they don't have good anti paladin like berbers. I think they should get halbs/camels, but knight line balancing is pretty debatable.

Its honestly a design choice problem. Right now their knight line is meant to be spammed like goths. Giving them fully upgraded paladin would mean they have to do a bunch of rework.

To be clear I am not opposed to giving them a new identity like a strong paladin civ, but i am also fine with their current identity atm.

[Vemonia]

İlk olarak Moist Butt tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak Cloud tarafından gönderildi:

Well that's fair. Maybe I'm biased as I expect a "Cavalry civ" not to be just a trash-cavalry civ, due to missing both Plate Barding and the Paladin upgrade or a comparable cav UU as a substitute.

I get where you are coming from. Most ppl think of fully upgraded paladin when they think of cav civ, but the devs designed them to be more quantity than quality. I mean berbers are kinda in the same situation as them, but they do get that final armor. The main issue is they don't have good anti paladin like berbers. I think they should get halbs/camels, but knight line balancing is pretty debatable.

Its honestly a design choice problem. Right now their knight line is meant to be spammed like goths. Giving them fully upgraded paladin would mean they have to do a bunch of rework.

To be clear I am not opposed to giving them a new identity like a strong paladin civ, but i am also fine with their current identity atm.

I think that the Poles are a well designed civ, namely a cavalry civ with a strong power spike in castle age due to UT, that scales very well in melee fights but poorly against ranged attacks (arbalesters/cavalry archers).

However, his concept sounds hard to properly balance in team games, as they cannot act very effectively as the cavalry civ in a team game in imperial age due to missing the last cavalry armor (missing this tech being the concept of the civ).

Just as you, I wouldn't mind them keeping this concept or becoming a more generic cavalry civ, as long as they are neither too OP or too UP compared to other civs.

I think it is still too early to tell how good they are as they have not been allowed yet in competitive play.

Maybe it would be interesting to give them the last archer armor, so that they get FU arbalesters. I wouldnt mind having a couple of civs that need to make a tech switch in imperial age in team games. I like awkward civs such as Malians/Poles/Celts that have a strong power spike in mid-game but may require a tech switch late game. A duo of Poles with Persians/Cumans/Malians/Portuguese/Chinese might be interesting, having Poles as cavalry civ switching to arbalesters late game, and the other way around for the other civ. This would be quite expensive but very powerful when both civs have a decent bonus as both archer civ and knight civ:
- Persians: good early&mid game eco + team bonus for cavalry + castle FU trashbow + imperial paladin
- Cumans: cheap Stables & Ranges + castle FU Xbow + imperial fast paladin
- malians: good mid game eco + team bonus for archers + castle FU Xbows + imperial farimba FU cavalier
- Portuguese: shares vision + cheap FU arbalesters + cheap FU cavaliers
- chinese: good mid game eco + good team eco bonus + cheap tech switch + FU arbalesters + FU cavaliers

I wouldn't have a problem giving them halberdiers or camels (even though camels feels weird for a north European team, but w/e), but I don't think these units would be significantly more effective than Pole's cavaliers/Hussars to counter cavalry... As the Poles cavalry is supposed to win cost effectively against any other non-elephant cavalry in the game, and are better at killing any other non-elephant military unit in the game.

[jonoliveira12]

Berbers are a Cavalry civ, and lack Paladins entirely. Paladfin does not make a civ, a Cavalry civ, which is why Byzantines and Celts have it, but are not Cavalry civs, while Burmese and Berbers are, but have no Paladin.

[𝔫𝔢𝔬𝔫]

İlk olarak jonoliveira12 tarafından gönderildi:

Berbers are a Cavalry civ, and lack Paladins entirely. Paladfin does not make a civ, a Cavalry civ, which is why Byzantines and Celts have it, but are not Cavalry civs, while Burmese and Berbers are, but have no Paladin.

At least Berbers have every single tech available from the Blacksmith. And Burmese are specified as a Monk & Elephant civilization, not a Cavalry civ.