Mangudai Overrated

[yuzhonglu]

In early castle age, Conqs and Berber Camel Archers are better.

In late imperial age, then they're supposed to reach their "peak" they're hard countered by:

1. Berber Camel Archer.
2. Rattan archer.
3. Elite eagles (especially Mayan and Incan) types
4. Elite Kipchaks and Hun Cav archers trade cost effectively/ evenly against them.
5. Elite Longbows.
6. Ethiopian Arbs.
7. Korean War Wagon
8. Magyar CA
9. Goth Huskarls

[-Dare Devil/x/]

-It depends.

-Are you talking about specifically 1v1 with no external factors and pitting 60 Elite Mangudai vs, say, 60 Elite Longbows?

[yuzhonglu]

Well I am ignoring the civ econ bonuses. But I'm pointing out that Mangudai get raped by pretty much anything that has:

1. Equivalent range of Mangudai.
2. And/or Higher pierce armor than Mangudai

Any cav archer civ can trade effectively with Mangudai with their own cav archer because Mongols don't get the final pierce armor (very big deal). Heck, even Turkish Cav Archers out-trade Mandugai.

And any civ with a high pierce armor unit can outcompete Mandugai because Mandugai won't do crap to them. Goths, Incans, Mayans, Aztecs, Turk Light Cav, Tartar Silk Armor Cav, etc.

And any civ with a good archer UU with equivalent or greater range will beat Mandugai.

And that's like half the freaking civs in the game.

[yuzhonglu]

And if we're talking about Hussar/ Cav Archer vs Hussar Cav Archer matchups, the Turks, Huns, Tartars, and Magyars are better at it than the Mongols.

[TheDiaper]

They have faster movement speed, faster firing rate, higher attack, as well as bonus damage against siege.

[yuzhonglu]

-2 pierce armor, 1 less range and damage than Magyars, cost 25% more than Huns, Kipchaks shoot just as fast, gets wrecked by Camel Archers, aren't as effective in early castle as Conqs, and have 20 less health than Turk versions.

[TheDiaper]

-Pierce armor only matters in direct engagements with no meat shields.
-You need to take fire rate into DPS consideration.
-They do well against the biggest threats to ranged units : Siege rams & Onagers & Paladins.

https://youtu.be/LDUuDRpnWXs?t=2124
"Probably the best unit in the game, its viable in castle age. Its actually really good in castle age, Im surprised we dont see it more used in castle age to be honest. It used to be even way better in the past where they have no fire delay. They are pretty much a kipchak before, and that was insane. If you guys have joined recently since the HD / DE balance changes of mangudai, you guys missed out. Because this unit was incredible back in the day, still incredible still probably the best unit in the game all things considered. You get to post-imp, theres not many other units you would like to have other than the mangudai. Just so mobile, it has good range, good damage, good fire rate, counter even siege. Youll have a really hard timer finding the proper counter."


https://youtu.be/0K0KChTI19E?t=187
"I feel like the mangudai does it all. It is fast, relatively cheap, it has good DPS, good fire rate smooth to micro, and benefits from a lot of important upgrades like bloodlines and husbandary, just further make it a strong castle age unit. And on top of all that, it also has a bonus damage to siege, so it doesnt die to siege ram like other unique units."

Viper and Hera dont place them in S-tier for no reason.

[76561199096712327]

To be fair if Berbers had the same eco bonus as Mongols you'd probably see them picked more often than Mongols.

Those tier lists are also implicitly a civ tier list to a certain extent. If Mongols traded their eco bonus with Berbers or Spanish they would likely drop a whole tier as a civ because of how difficult it would get to reach a decent Mangudai mass.

[yuzhonglu]

Originally posted by Fortniter:

-Pierce armor only matters in direct engagements with no meat shields.
-You need to take fire rate into DPS consideration.
-They do well against the biggest threats to ranged units : Siege rams & Onagers & Paladins.

https://youtu.be/LDUuDRpnWXs?t=2124
"Probably the best unit in the game, its viable in castle age. Its actually really good in castle age, Im surprised we dont see it more used in castle age to be honest. It used to be even way better in the past where they have no fire delay. They are pretty much a kipchak before, and that was insane. If you guys have joined recently since the HD / DE balance changes of mangudai, you guys missed out. Because this unit was incredible back in the day, still incredible still probably the best unit in the game all things considered. You get to post-imp, theres not many other units you would like to have other than the mangudai. Just so mobile, it has good range, good damage, good fire rate, counter even siege. Youll have a really hard timer finding the proper counter."


https://youtu.be/0K0KChTI19E?t=187
"I feel like the mangudai does it all. It is fast, relatively cheap, it has good DPS, good fire rate smooth to micro, and benefits from a lot of important upgrades like bloodlines and husbandary, just further make it a strong castle age unit. And on top of all that, it also has a bonus damage to siege, so it doesnt die to siege ram like other unique units."

Viper and Hera dont place them in S-tier for no reason.

What happens in most cav archer vs cav archer battles is the light cav in the front die.

Then its cav archer vs cav archer. I'd rather have the Magyars extra range, extra damage, and 2 extra pierce armor over the Mangudai.

And Magyars get better light cav with better pierce armor and health (the unique version).

Only reason Mongols get picked more than Magyars is because Mongols have the better econ bonus.

[TheDiaper]

Originally posted by yuzhonglu:

What happens in most cav archer vs cav archer battles is the light cav in the front die.

Then its cav archer vs cav archer.

As if melee units just simply cancel out each other 11

I'd rather have the Magyars extra range, extra damage, and 2 extra pierce armor over the Mangudai.

Finally, yes, YOU would.

[76561199096712327]

Originally posted by yuzhonglu:

Only reason Mongols get picked more than Magyars is because Mongols have the better econ bonus.

That is A reason, but certainly not the only reason.

The point of chess is to checkmate the opponent, not to win the opponent's Queen. You can sacrifice everything you have if you checkmate the opponent, nobody cares how many pieces you or they have left if you win.

The point of AoE 2 is to win the game, not to win engagements that are unfavorable to you.

In AoE 2 you can just do enough eco damage to make sure the opponent will eventually lose, even if they have the theoretically superior 200/200 pop endgame composition. Otherwise Persians would have been one of the best with Elite War Elephants.

In its default mode AoE 2 does not start in Post-Imperial where you have expensive UTs such as Recurve Bow researched.

Mangudai are faster and much easier to micro than CA, not to mention they cannot be easily countered by some defensive Scorpions behind walls.

CA will take damage because of the firing delay and cannot easily take out 3+ Scorpions in an entrenched position without very large numbers, while Mangudai can.

Mongols are good because because Mangudai are much better at raiding and doing eco damage than CA.

[petercordia]

Magudai are amazing because they kill siege and are good to micro.

These 2 factors make them useful in small numbers and much easier to get to than FU Magyar HCA.

Sure, you can counter Magudai with HCA, and 60 FU Magyar HCA have more raw power than 60 Magudai. BUT cav archers can be countered by siege, which the opponent is much more likely to have access to compared with FU HCA. And Magudai have a good transition due to be OK in Castle age and great in Imp. Only Kipchaks have similar utility in Castle, and I can't see how anyone could be bothered to babysit fragile 6 range units (Kipchaks) in Imp.

[jonoliveira12]

The Mangudai is the strongest Cavalry Archer in the game, and one of the strongest UUs.
They can bring down Rams and Onagers so fast, it is not even worth it to make Siege against the Mongols.

[JoshSA]

Mangudai are one of the best units in the game until I have to use them 11

[TheDiaper]

Getting kited by mangudais is one of the most desperate moments in aoe2.

[yuzhonglu]

Kipchaks and Magyar and Hun and Turk Cav archer can kite too.

Mangudai is NOT strongest CA in game. That goes to the Magyars.