Why dont Genoese crossbowmen deal bonus damage to cataphracts?

[renehvac]

certain units (like jaguar warriors and plumes) deal bonus damage to condottieri, so why doesn't the same apply to cataphracts? (aside from camels, that is.)

[Quintem]

Because cataphracts have bonus cavalry armour. So it flat reduces damage from any source of anti cavalry damage, spear-line, camels, Mamelukes and Genoese crossbows.

Condottiero have bonus armour against gunpowder damage. Even though on sites and other information sources it seems to just say infantry armour. As to why this is I don't know.

[chaoticbalrog]

Originally posted by renehvac:

certain units (like jaguar warriors and plumes) deal bonus damage to condottieri, so why doesn't the same apply to cataphracts? (aside from camels, that is.)

Originally posted by Quintem:

Because cataphracts have bonus cavalry armour. So it flat reduces damage from any source of anti cavalry damage, spear-line, camels, Mamelukes and Genoese crossbows.

Condottiero have bonus armour against gunpowder damage. Even though on sites and other information sources it seems to just say infantry armour. As to why this is I don't know.

Heavy Camel Riders only deal a small amount of bonus damage unless they are Gurjara Heavy Camel Riders. Cataphracts have 12 defense against anti-cavalry attack bonuses (16 defense for Elite Cataphracts), so the Genoese Crossbowman's bonus damage is outright negated by the Cataphract's bonus defense. This also happens to the basic spearman fighting against an Elite Cataphract. Genoese Crossbowman are still pretty decent against Cataphracts if only because of their pierce damage. Cataphracts have less pierce armor than they have melee armor.

[Quintem]

Originally posted by chaoticbalrog:

Heavy Camel Riders only deal a small amount of bonus damage unless they are Gurjara Heavy Camel Riders. Cataphracts have 12 defense against anti-cavalry attack bonuses (16 defense for Elite Cataphracts), so the Genoese Crossbowman's bonus damage is outright negated by the Cataphract's bonus defense. This also happens to the basic spearman fighting against an Elite Cataphract. Genoese Crossbowman are still pretty decent against Cataphracts if only because of their pierce damage. Cataphracts have less pierce armor than they have melee armor.

They're still one of the best archers against them funnily enough. Higher hp, higher melee armour means they can take more hits, though the shorter range is unfortunate. Any fully upgraded archers are generally a pain for cataphracts.

[Heimdall313]

Do they even need it? I don't think they do

[dannyc2012]

Game logic :D

Weird considering Foot Archer line is their direct counter. Not sure about Cav archers and Elephant archers. Need to use the slow speed against them so those foot archers need to be scattered when there are few cataphracts you need to take care of

[DesertRose92]

Cataphracts have 12 / 16 (Elite) Cavalry armor.
That means any bonus damage to cavalry is reduced by up to that amount. Halberdier, Pikeman and Heavy Camel Rider are the only units that deal enough cavalry bonus damage to overcome that armor. Plus Spearman for the non-Elite version.

[renehvac]

Originally posted by DesertRose92:

Cataphracts have 12 / 16 (Elite) Cavalry armor.
That means any bonus damage to cavalry is reduced by up to that amount. Halberdier, Pikeman and Heavy Camel Rider are the only units that deal enough cavalry bonus damage to overcome that armor. Plus Spearman for the non-Elite version.

Yes, I know this, but why don't Genoese crossbowmen have a bonus against cataphracts?

[chaoticbalrog]

Originally posted by renehvac:

Originally posted by DesertRose92:

Cataphracts have 12 / 16 (Elite) Cavalry armor.
That means any bonus damage to cavalry is reduced by up to that amount. Halberdier, Pikeman and Heavy Camel Rider are the only units that deal enough cavalry bonus damage to overcome that armor. Plus Spearman for the non-Elite version.

Yes, I know this, but why don't Genoese crossbowmen? have a bonus against cataphracts?

Genoese Crossbowman have only 5 bonus damage (7 for Elite), which is outright negated by the 12 bonus defense that the Cataphract has.

[renehvac]

Originally posted by chaoticbalrog:

Originally posted by renehvac:

Yes, I know this, but why don't Genoese crossbowmen? have a bonus against cataphracts?

Genoese Crossbowman have only 5 bonus damage (7 for Elite), which is outright negated by the 12 bonus defense that the Cataphract has.

That's not what I mean. Why don't they deal bonus damage to cataphracts like how plumed archers deal bonus damage to condottieri? (plumes have a bonus against infantry AND condos) It's not like it would be too hard of a counter, since they have the range of a cav archer.

[chaoticbalrog]

Originally posted by renehvac:

Originally posted by chaoticbalrog:

Genoese Crossbowman have only 5 bonus damage (7 for Elite), which is outright negated by the 12 bonus defense that the Cataphract has.

That's not what I mean. Why don't they deal bonus damage to cataphracts like how plumed archers deal bonus damage to condottieri? (plumes have a bonus against infantry AND condos) It's not like it would be too hard of a counter, since they have the range of a cav archer.

I already answered it: the Cataphract's bonus defense negates the Genoese Crossbowman's bonus damage. Cataphracts also do not have any extra armor classes that Genoese Crossbowmen do bonus damage against.

[renehvac]

Originally posted by chaoticbalrog:

Originally posted by renehvac:

That's not what I mean. Why don't they deal bonus damage to cataphracts like how plumed archers deal bonus damage to condottieri? (plumes have a bonus against infantry AND condos) It's not like it would be too hard of a counter, since they have the range of a cav archer.

I already answered it: the Cataphract's bonus defense negates the Genoese Crossbowman's bonus damage. Cataphracts also do not have any extra armor classes that Genoese Crossbowmen do bonus damage against.

You don't seem to understand. I know that Genoese crossbowmen deal bonus damage to cavalry, but they don't have bonuses against cataphracts. Take the samurai, for example. They deal bonus damage to unique units, and the damage still applies to cataphracts. What I'm saying is why didn't the devs give Genoese crossbowmen bonus damage against cataphracts?

[chaoticbalrog]

Originally posted by renehvac:

Originally posted by chaoticbalrog:

I already answered it: the Cataphract's bonus defense negates the Genoese Crossbowman's bonus damage. Cataphracts also do not have any extra armor classes that Genoese Crossbowmen do bonus damage against.

You don't seem to understand. I know that Genoese crossbowmen deal bonus damage to cavalry, but they don't have bonuses against cataphracts. Take the samurai, for example. They deal bonus damage to unique units, and the damage still applies to cataphracts. What I'm saying is why didn't the devs give Genoese crossbowmen bonus damage against cataphracts?

It's you that doesn't understand. The Genoese Crossbowman's bonus damage is less than the bonus defense that the Cataphract has. Genoese Crossbowman do not have any bonus damage against unique units.

[renehvac]

Originally posted by chaoticbalrog:

Originally posted by renehvac:

You don't seem to understand. I know that Genoese crossbowmen deal bonus damage to cavalry, but they don't have bonuses against cataphracts. Take the samurai, for example. They deal bonus damage to unique units, and the damage still applies to cataphracts. What I'm saying is why didn't the devs give Genoese crossbowmen bonus damage against cataphracts?

It's you that doesn't understand. The Genoese Crossbowman's bonus damage is less than the bonus defense that the Cataphract has. Genoese Crossbowman do not have any bonus damage against unique units.

THAT'S NOT WHAT I MEAN! How do you not understand?! I know that it's negated, but why didn't the developers give genoese crossbowmen bonus damage to the cataphract that can't be negated?! At this point, it feels like you're trollling.

[chaoticbalrog]

The devs believe that the Genoese Crossbow's pierce damage alone would be enough for them to reliably fight off Cataphracts.

[Quintem]

Originally posted by chaoticbalrog:

The devs believe that the Genoese Crossbow's pierce damage alone would be enough for them to reliably fight off Cataphracts.

This. As I also already stated fully upgraded generic arbalester will deal with cataphracts pretty well if they have any kind of meat shield, preferably cavalry meat shield. Genoese crossbows are slightly shorter range that's a negative but tougher that's a positive. So their effectiveness is roughly the same if maybe slight better than arbs. They don't need to deal bonus damage on top to cataphracts specifically and cataphracts special bonus is it's full or partial immunity to the usual anti cavalry damage types.

The Samurai's gimmick is it deals bonus damage to ALL unique units. This damage is specific to unique units.