Persian elephants are too OP

[eldestchild]

the Persian Elephants are way to overpowered. you cant stop them one they get started

[Mia Wallace]

The unit is very expensive. Most of the things are balanced for "pro" players.
I think its fine but I can understand it can be frustrating :)

[MeowinTurtle]

make halberdiers and monks

[KingKickAss]

I think if your opponent is at a point where they can unleash an unstoppable force of War Elephants, you've already lost.

[nehireta]

Originally posted by KingKickAss:

I think if your opponent is at a point where they can unleash an unstoppable force of War Elephants, you've already lost.

I second this

[Quintem]

1. Don't let the Persian player get to that stage.

2. War Elephants are the most expensive* UU and require castles.

3. Mass Halbs, can be throw at them in 1 vs 1. If you're ready in time and can drop enough barracks your opponent is on a clock, they need to kill you before they run out of gold. In team games halbs can still swarm them but are more a meat shield than a full on counter because of endless gold via trade carts.

4. Monks. Unless your civ has the worst monks possible even then in both 1 vs 1 and team games monks stealing elephants is painful. It's not only a powerful unit that just got switched it's a massive loss in resources. Add into the fact it's now tanking damage allowing enemy units to deal damage more easily to it's former allies. With a enough monks you can just mass convert your opponents army and send it back at them. Persians do not have the best monks either so if you end up in a monk war many civs will win this. As always protect your monks though with spear units or any other meat shield you can provide them.

5. Onager or specifically Siege Onagers. Siege Onagers counter all units in the game in large enough number with their only real weakness being very fast units and bombard cannons even then some civs can still make it work. 10 Siege Onager can kill a War Elephant with a direct hit on top of the fact they'll do incredibly amounts of splash damage to all nearby units. With expendable meat shield or just good aim you can do serious damage to a war elephant army and your other units can finish them off. Teching into this is very expensive, is probably only something you'd do if you know your civ has good bonuses to support this. Mongols speedy siege or Koreans getting +1 range.

Use the combination of things listed above to come out ahead. Yes they are super scary if the Persian can get them rolling but the amount of scenarios this should realistically happen is low. Black Forest or Arena type deal.


*Turtle ships are more expensive in raw resources but a rarely built and water map specific. Even more rare than War Elephants. War Wagons also cost a lot but is discounted because of Korean civ bonus. There are be other units that are also pretty pricey few match the War Elephant.

[Moist Butt]

lets petition a nerf for them.

[James3157]

The reason why Persians have a high win rate at least on 1v1 is probably not because of the Persian war elephants, but other reasons. Persians got a significant buff recently that did a lot more than only just help them with war elephants (although, there speed was increased for free without needing to research it anymore). Persian war elephants may not be as commonly used as you might think on multiplayer either especially for noobs and average players meaning that the reason why Persians have a very good win rate is not necessarily because of their Persian war elephants. New civ bonuses that significantly buffed the Persians (which can easily be looked up either online or on AoE II: DE which is definitely better than it was before), Savars (cheaper than Paladins to research), and Mahouts being replaced with Citadels have to be factored in as well. In other words Persians seem to be more practical overall for using knights (including upgrades), scouts (including upgrades), possibly camels (but probably more commonly used on single player than multiplayer), and cavalry archers (because of Kamandaran tech that makes cavalry archers cost 0 gold, Parthian tactics available in Castle Age, and thumb ring) than using war elephants and can also have very good castles as well for late game because of the Citadels unique tech.

[Lilim]

The Persian War Elephant needs a mahout!

[dannyc2012]

Originally posted by James3157:

The reason why Persians have a high win rate at least on 1v1 is probably not because of the Persian war elephants, but other reasons. Persians got a significant buff recently that did a lot more than only just help them with war elephants (although, there speed was increased for free without needing to research it anymore). Persian war elephants may not be as commonly used as you might think on multiplayer either especially for noobs and average players meaning that the reason why Persians have a very good win rate is not necessarily because of their Persian war elephants. New civ bonuses that significantly buffed the Persians (which can easily be looked up either online or on AoE II: DE which is definitely better than it was before), Savars (cheaper than Paladins to research), and Mahouts being replaced with Citadels have to be factored in as well. In other words Persians seem to be more practical overall for using knights (including upgrades), scouts (including upgrades), possibly camels (but probably more commonly used on single player than multiplayer), and cavalry archers (because of Kamandaran tech that makes cavalry archers cost 0 gold, Parthian tactics available in Castle Age, and thumb ring) than using war elephants and can also have very good castles as well for late game because of the Citadels unique tech.

devs like doing silly things. They should nerf the TC hit points. Their logic might be "It will make the game popular" but all it does is lead to player frustration and over use of certain civs will others get sidetracked

[dieMaus]

More open maps: Attack them early, especially monks are good because you get that chunky expensive chunker yourself after converting.

Closed maps: More tricky, they can wall up and unleash them when they are ready. Also, if, teamgame, potential for unlimited gold (trade). In this case the best way would be meatshield (halbs), siege onagers and maybe some monks thrown in.

But, I agree, if you let the persion player untouched till he has a mass of war eles, that will be hard... But that's true for other units aswell.

[Quintem]

Originally posted by James3157:

cavalry archers (because of Kamandaran tech that makes cavalry archers cost 0 gold

Kamandaran effects archer-line, not cavalry archers. Which are commonly referred to as trashbows.

Also a big reason for their win rate increase is their TC work rate returning in Dark Age. It gives them a 1 villager lead so they can in theory go up earlier or the same time with +1. While also researching the next age faster AND researching Wheelbarrow and Handcart faster. Obviously they need a bit of extra food coming in to keep villagers coming out faster. If they can keep the snowball going they end up with a decent villager lead.

From personal experience in team games if I'm allowed to boom with Persians I almost beat everyone in economy growth and I'm bad at macro.

[chaoticbalrog]

Persian Trashbows are kept relatively balanced by how they don't get Bracer and also cannot be upgraded to Arbalesters.

[MassMetalizer]

Originally posted by Lilim:

The Persian War Elephant needs a mahout!

Naw, I love to think the War Elephants are just highly trained ahah. It's funny sending a group of them out and they just do their jobs without human management.

[renehvac]

Actually, their war elephants are pretty terrible, even with full upgrades. Persians don't have access to heresy, and almost every other mounted unit (not including other elephants) can outrun them. What makes the Persians so strong is their knight line. Their knight line receives many bonuses, such as 5 gold for every military unit killed, and the paladin replacement, the savar.

[Quintem]

Originally posted by renehvac:

Actually, their war elephants are pretty terrible, even with full upgrades. Persians don't have access to heresy, and almost every other mounted unit (not including other elephants) can outrun them. What makes the Persians so strong is their knight line. Their knight line receives many bonuses, such as 5 gold for every military unit killed, and the paladin replacement, the savar.

They lost the gold on killing units bonus.

Yes generally war elephants are not great, but when they are great, they're terrifying. Black Forest or Arena where central fighting areas are smaller. Most people don't go monk play in team games.

Savar is in many cases a better paladin. It destroys archers and has a cheaper upgrade while still be roughly similar vs melee combatants. You're right about that.

Also have fully upgraded hussars, camels and bombard cannons. It's really just a meh archery range late game and an okay barracks. Pretty bad monks.