Can we all agree Tartars are absolutely useless?

[Rett Mikhal]

Let's go over everything that makes the Tartars what they are and why they are terrible.

Cavalry Archer Civilization: Cavalry Archer is objectively the worst unit. While it sounds good on paper to have a fast moving archer, their attack speed is atrocious and they constantly cancel out of their own attack animation. They have been broken in a bad way for a long time and unless they get a bonus, like Turks or Magyars, they are not worth it. Also, despite being a Cavalry Archer civ, they get no real bonus for them, only LOS and two free upgrades. I'd much rather have damage or range like Turks or Magyars.

UU: Keshik. Again, sounds cool on paper, a unit that makes gold. But it will never generate nearly as much as it costs (and it costs a lot). Maybe if you fight something that doesn't fight back, like buildings or villagers, but Vikings get a better gold bonus for a better unit with a waaaaaay better economy. Also, like their Cav Archer status, none of their unique techs affects their UU, making them almost pointless.

Unique Tech: Silk Armor: Kind of useful for trash wars, and it can be OK on Steppe Lancers, but it's not really all that strong with only +1/+1. I mean compare it to say Goth Huskarls for pierce, and that's basically just the unit itself. Silk Armor Hussars can definitely raid, but almost all hussars can raid so... yay?

Timurid Siegecraft: Good golly miss Molly, what a worthless tech. Besides the meme unit of flaming camels, which are situational at best and a meme at worst, +2 range on trebuchets is a joke. Trebuchets already outrange everything. So you outrange other trebs, very slightly.... hooray... What does that accomplish? Huns get more ACCURATE trebs for FREE! Am I the only one that sees this?! I feel like I'm taking crazy pills!

Civ Bonuses: Herdable animals contain 50% more food: Here it is, everyone! The most useless Civ bonus in the game! Like the Brits bonus, it becomes obsolete before Feudal Age or Castle depending on the map. On most standard maps, there's only 8 sheep, 800 food, so you get a theoretical 400 food except for rotting mechanic, so it will never be that much. Compare to free farming upgrades, free handcart, faster farms, or even faster berries and which of those would you actually use? Hell Lithuanians just get plain old free food at the beginning instantly. Sure, you get more sheep later... much later... and only 2 per TC, so anywhere from... 2 to maybe 10? Another theoretical 100-500 food in Imperial Age, when in team games it isn't uncommon to have 50k+ food lying around. Wow that changed the tide, good job Tartars.

Units do 50% more damage from elevation: In addition to being extremely situational (you hear that a lot with Tartars), units already do more damage from elevation; tartars just do slightly more. How good even is this? Say you control a hill. Then what? The enemy will not engage you on it and eventually you have to leave. Not to mention how small a factor this is; some maps, particularly Nomad, have practically no hills whatsoever!

Parthian Tactics and Thumb Ring free: Great, but not mind blowing. It's 500 food 250 wood and 250 gold for free. Huns get cheaper Cav archers for every archer they build. They can theoretically save thousands of gold. The only advantage here is that it is instant, but building cav archers is NOT. You can't build them until Castle age, so you will always have time where this bonus affects 0 units. Total. Joke.

Two sheep spawn at new TCs: Not even worth talking about.

Team bonus: Mounted archers have +2 LOS: LOS is... not a great bonus. It's OK, I guess. Byzantines get better LOS for everything, which is much better. Cav archers are not popular so many teams will probably not even see this. If you go Steppe lancers as Tartars, you won't even see it yourself. It's like if Turks had a bonus for spears.

And that's it! Everything they have is garbage. Am I missing something? I understand if you absolutely mass 100+ Cav Archers they can be a real death ball, but their economy is so bad good luck ever getting there.

[dannyc2012]

引用自 Quintem：

This entire thread is maddening with some of the wild claims and statements.

Camels are not generic unit. Most civs dont get it. Knights, light Cav, Militia line, Skirmisher, spearmen are generic units.

Saracen are best example of generic civ. Almost has all relevant things in the tech tree but nothing spectacularly OP. No power spike. Tatars on other had don't have capable infantry. Too reliant on cavalry and melee UU is not that great

May be harvesting them trees faster may not be required since will probably run out of gold for CA if they player is only going CA. Running out of wood in an intense arena match is a thing with many civs which employ both halb and skirm and have 45+ farms with auto reseed enabled.

Problem with people is they cant see the obvious. Need to guides and ready made build-orders to succeed. Quote "Pro-Player are so stubborn wont try a strategy they haven't seen others (probably means other pro-players) succeed with". Sometimes, I feel like there is some sort of no "x" unit challenge. Which actually means the true strength of a civ is not know till much much much later

Sicilians keep getting flak for being a bad civ. Won a game with just few serjents, first crusades (4x5 =20 serjeants), donjons and skirms. AOE 2 stats website had me shocked and thinking its a civ win

Here is something which will make you even more crazy. Tatars are almost dead last. Elo doesnt matter.

[Kampfschwein Fjonda]

It is well known that Sicilians are (only) successful on low elo, because oponents are freaked out by Donjons and die to Serjants + Donjons without much of a fight.

[James3157]

Steppe Lancers are neither unique or generic, but fall somewhere in between similar to camels. Most civs cannot have steppe lancers or camels besides Cumans (but camels are more useless beyond Castle Age since they are the only civ with camel that do not have heavy camel upgrade), Saracens (camels only), Berbers (camels only), Chinese (camels only), Ethiopians (camels only), Gurjaras (camels only), Mongols, Tatars, Hindustanis (camels only), Persians (camels only), Byzantines (camels only), and Turks (camels only). Only three civs actually have steppe lancers meaning they are not generic while 12 civs total have camels out 36 civs total. While camels being considered generic is considered debatable only one-third out of all civs can have them without full tech tree being enabled and are the weakest overall for Cumans.

[Quintem]

引用自 dannyc2012：

引用自 Quintem：

This entire thread is maddening with some of the wild claims and statements.

Camels are not generic unit. Most civs dont get it. Knights, light Cav, Militia line, Skirmisher, spearmen are generic units.

Saracen are best example of generic civ. Almost has all relevant things in the tech tree but nothing spectacularly OP. No power spike. Tatars on other had don't have capable infantry. Too reliant on cavalry and melee UU is not that great

May be harvesting them trees faster may not be required since will probably run out of gold for CA if they player is only going CA. Running out of wood in an intense arena match is a thing with many civs which employ both halb and skirm and have 45+ farms with auto reseed enabled.

Problem with people is they cant see the obvious. Need to guides and ready made build-orders to succeed. Quote "Pro-Player are so stubborn wont try a strategy they haven't seen others (probably means other pro-players) succeed with". Sometimes, I feel like there is some sort of no "x" unit challenge

Here is something which will make you even more crazy. Tatars are almost dead last. Elo doesnt matter.

Camel Riders are a generic unit. They are not a region unit like elephant archer or steppe lancers. Not unique units. Thus they are generic. I'm 95% people will agree with me on that statement.

Saracens have camels, your own logic says camels are not generic, so Saracens are not generic. When I refer to a generic start, it means a civ without weird bonuses. Huns no houses, Chinese villager start, Mayans extra villager, etc. 90% of civs are fairly generic in how they start. There are a few civs that can do advanced quirky stuff like Celts can use 2 lumberjacks for a short time and not run out of wood for basics in the Dark Age.

If you want to say purely generic start for learning purposes, there are very few civs that fit this category. Byzantines is one, having no economy bonus, Saracens is another, though market abuse exists. I'd say this sort of terminology is used for new players trying to explain to them a civ that have no editional bells and whistles and learning standard builds with them gets the most well rounded feel for the game. You don't end up reliant on civ bonuses. You know what to expect. If Byzantines can do the build order anyone probably can, but if you know how the leverage your civ you can get superior results to the standard/generic strategy.

Running out of wood in an Arena match is not a thing, it's not common or normal or expected. The map is mostly trees. If you run out of wood on arena you are both extremely evenly matched or have no idea how to kill your opponent properly. I've only had a few 2 hour plus in game time games where trees were becoming sparse and none of those were arena.

I don't fully understand this paragraph, are you implying pros can't think of orginal strategies? In which case yes that can happen sometimes. You get pros that are mechanical gods but don't have creative thinking of maybe a slightly lower skilled player that has much more dynamic and interesting strategies. Truly godlike players have both. They are frightening individuals. You also have to remember is using tried and true strategies have a reason, they're tried and true. If a strategy works, why go out of your way to think up something unique that might fail. If you do have a wild card, you save that for key moments in long sets in tournaments. You don't throw them out willy nilly.

As for your final paragraph, I know. I said so in this thread...

[James3157]

引用自 dannyc2012：

Viper proved that Dravidians can do well even on Arabia. Play properly

Only civ i have issues with as Dravidians is Bohemians. Urumi swordsman cant kill vills with 1.1 speed. Bohemians are most boring civ to play against

Depending on which civ Dravidians are playing against they can do very well especially against Tatars for top 1%, but they also have the lowest win rate for highest elo in comparison to lower elo. At only 45.26% win rate Dravidians are ranked at the very bottom for win rate with the top 1% for 1v1; although, Goths (45.70% win rate), Burmese (46.11% win rate), Poles (46.15% win rate), and Sicilians (46.19% win rate) are not that much ahead of them as far as win rates are concerned meaning the difference in win rates total for each one is less than 1%.

[James3157]

引用自 Quintem：

Camel Riders are a generic unit. They are not a region unit like elephant archer or steppe lancers. Not unique units. Thus they are generic. I'm 95% people will agree with me on that statement.

Steppe lancers are definitely not generic, but are not unique either since three civs can have them and not one including Tatars, Cumans, and Mongols. While somewhat similar to steppe lancers the monaspa do not really count from Georgians and contrary to steppe lancers they are a unique unit. Camels being considered generic might be debatable, but one-third of all civs can have them or in other words 12 out of 36 civs can have them and more generic in comparison to steppe lancers. While camels are weak for Cumans late game (probably because you are supposed to play with steppe lancers, light cavalry, and/or knights late game instead of camels) that is still one-third for all civs combined.

[Quintem]

引用自 James3157：

引用自 Quintem：

Camel Riders are a generic unit. They are not a region unit like elephant archer or steppe lancers. Not unique units. Thus they are generic. I'm 95% people will agree with me on that statement.

Steppe lancers are definitely not generic, but are not unique either since three civs can have them and not one including Tatars, Cumans, and Mongols. While somewhat similar to steppe lancers the monaspa do not really count from Georgians and contrary to steppe lancers they are a unique unit. Camels being considered generic might be debatable, but one-third of all civs can have them or in other words 12 out of 36 civs can have them and more generic in comparison to steppe lancers. While camels are weak for Cumans late game (probably because you are supposed to play with steppe lancers, light cavalry, and/or knights late game instead of camels) that is still one-third for all civs combined.

I never said Steppe Lancers are generic.

Also it's 13 out of 45 civs that have access to camel riders. It's a bit lower than I thought, lower than even bombard cannons. It's common enough and in the standard tech tree. Also all techs unlocks it for everyone.

Siege Onagers are a generic unit but they are only accessible by 14 of the 45 civs.

Maybe that's the key argument here. If full tech tree gives it to you. It's a generic unit. Some will argue regional units such as Steppe Lancers, Eagle Warriors, Battle Elephants, etc. are slightly different because they are not unique but much more limited and it's an unofficial term.

[James3157]

引用自 Quintem：

I never said Steppe Lancers are generic.

Also it's 13 out of 45 civs that have access to camel riders. It's a bit lower than I thought, lower than even bombard cannons. It's common enough and in the standard tech tree. Also all techs unlocks it for everyone.

Siege Onagers are a generic unit but they are only accessible by 14 of the 45 civs.

Maybe that's the key argument here. If full tech tree gives it to you. It's a generic unit. Some will argue regional units such as Steppe Lancers, Eagle Warriors, Battle Elephants, etc. are slightly different because they are not unique but much more limited and it's an unofficial term.

I did the math wrong (forgot Malians and total number of civs I counted was incorrect) and it is less than one-third of all civs and approximately 29% of all civs having access to camels; although, it is perhaps still considered a significant number of civs having camels even if the majority of civs do not have access to it without the full tech tree. I would say camels are generic, but one of the less common types of generic units. Also, siege onagers are an upgrade and not a special kind of unit (similar to paladins but are even more rare than siege onagers that only add up to 10 total) contrary to Imperial Skirmishers, Imperial Camels, and other unique units that are not limited to only just castles for getting.

[dannyc2012]

Running out of wood means cant collect enough wood to keep pace with building, military production and farms. Not actually running out of physical access to wood

Not having crop rotation can do this. To renew 50 Farms require 3000 Wood. 30 farm require 1800 wood.

That's an actual commentator quote. Pro make their own strategies and learn from each other. But when playing tournaments they choose to play very safe tried and tested strategies instead of obvious path which can help them win that particular game (and he's right. It sometimes results in very disappoint shocking mess)

Some people take certain *cough* pro as the only person worth listening to (no names) because he wins a lot. That create a world of stale strategies

[mmmcheesywaffles]

Usually if Wood is a scarce resource I find another resource and sell that to fund Wood purchase. Fish are a good source as only a small amount of Wood is needed to make a Fishery and the running cost is easily covered by the sales of fish.

Fisheries provide more of a profit than farms and can often be hid away in small lakes or far away corners of the map

[James3157]

引用自 dannyc2012：

Running out of wood means cant collect enough wood to keep pace with building, military production and farms. Not actually running out of physical access to wood

Not having crop rotation can do this. To renew 50 Farms require 3000 Wood. 30 farm require 1800 wood.

That's an actual commentator quote. Pro make their own strategies and learn from each other. But when playing tournaments they choose to play very safe tried and tested strategies instead of obvious path which can help them win that particular game (and he's right. It sometimes results in very disappoint shocking mess)

Some people take certain *cough* pro as the only person worth listening to (no names) because he wins a lot. That create a world of stale strategies

Speaking of crop rotation Tatars actually have that included as part of there tech tree which helps them as well in the long run. While you did not specifically mention them in your comment crop rotation does closely relate to Tatars and this conversation was originally about Tatars to begin with. I am however confused about your last two paragraphs in how it specifically relates to Tatars.

[Quintem]

引用自 dannyc2012：

Running out of wood means cant collect enough wood to keep pace with building, military production and farms. Not actually running out of physical access to wood

Not having crop rotation can do this. To renew 50 Farms require 3000 Wood. 30 farm require 1800 wood.

That's an actual commentator quote. Pro make their own strategies and learn from each other. But when playing tournaments they choose to play very safe tried and tested strategies instead of obvious path which can help them win that particular game (and he's right. It sometimes results in very disappoint shocking mess)

Some people take certain *cough* pro as the only person worth listening to (no names) because he wins a lot. That create a world of stale strategies

Wood is rarely an issue unless you're making a lot of wood units. Farms last for a good long while, I can't remember the time but something like 5 minutes with horse collar, 7-8 minutes with heavy plow. Roughly speaking I think it's 1 lumberjack to 4 farmers. So if you have 20 lumberjacks you can support 80 farms. If you want a surplus of wood you'd go over that value. If you have crop rotation this ratio is even better, if you're Chinese, Sicilians or Teutons then it's even greater ratio.

Another point is you rarely reseed all farms at the same time. So long as your stockpile is between 200-500 wood you're unlikely to have farms not reseed.

Yes people can get weird with taking pro players word as gospel, they're human, they don't always have all the facts and I've seen random people give new information pro players not even aware of. I don't know everything about AoE2. Try my best to understand and remember as much as possible.

[grraf]

Umm it just has to be done at this point : 'so can we all agree' that either: running out of wood on an arena map/playing long enough for crop rotation to pay off/having two-man saw decide the fate of a match are sure fire signs we are dealing with a ''bottom of the barrel player' that is nowhere near capable (micro or macro wise) of properly leveraging what tatars have to offer ?! ... lets get real barring some anomaly match that is a fringe case of one in a hundred or thousand matches there is no reasonable way for a game not to conclude within a 40-80min window(talking about a game that went to a full post imp case with neither side taking a deciding lead in the earlier stages)

[dannyc2012]

引用自 grraf：

Umm it just has to be done at this point : 'so can we all agree' that either: running out of wood on an arena map/playing long enough for crop rotation to pay off/having two-man saw decide the fate of a match are sure fire signs we are dealing with a ''bottom of the barrel player' that is nowhere near capable (micro or macro wise) of properly leveraging what tatars have to offer ?! ... let get real barring some anomaly match that is a fringe case of one in a hundred or thousand matches there is no reasonable way for a game not to conclude within a 40-80min window(talking about a game that went to a full post imp case with neither side taking a deciding lead in the earlier stages)

Read what i wrote first. I didnt say there is no wood on the map

Check the stats at Aoe Stats for Tatars before speaking. Even with strong units and mobility its meh. And its not a lie. Everyone struggle with it except "People who are not bottom tier at micro". They suck less :D

Talking a lead huh? Against AI? sure. Just castle drop their gold and attack the wall (arena). Then snipe every vill outside the walls (use urmui, Skirm archer halb depending on civ). mass 10 bombard cannons. 5 onagers. This works very well against Bohemians on Arena . Mine all stone and just keep castle drop everywhere just out of range walls. Force trebs outside the wall. Win in anywhere between 35-65 minutes

I'm sure it will work with Tatars even better

But Is that a fair game? whats the point of such games? I prefer battles where there is a mixed army not single unit supremacy (Mass Elite Hussite wagons or mass organ guns). That's not gaming. It's chores

[Nicolette DuClare]

Tatars are awesome. See: Zemfira.