cataphracts are broken

[Red mage]

Byzantines is broken, they have tanky building which makes it easy for them to survive early game than they go cataphracts spam and there is nothing that stops them it seems, its so brain dead and stupid like an army comb should have like 2 or 3 types of units but Byzantines just spam these goofballs and they walk over anything and unlike paladins i cant even trade with halbs since they die instantly , so i made siege onagres and guess what they also have bombard cannon, its impossible

[True Beard]

What civ were you playing as? The Cataphract only has 1 pierce armor, same with the elite version. Your best bet may have been to go arbs with a halb meat shield. If they go skirms to counter that you have those onagers.

Mixing in raids with light cav to snipe siege and disrupt your opponents eco could help out. Also they can only produce through the castle, making trebing them down a priority.

[Red mage]

Originally posted by True Beard:

What civ were you playing as? The Cataphract only has 1 pierce armor, same with the elite version. Your best bet may have been to go arbs with a halb meat shield. If they go skirms to counter that you have those onagers.

Mixing in raids with light cav to snipe siege and disrupt your opponents eco could help out. Also they can only produce through the castle, making trebing them down a priority.

i mainly play as Aztec and last time i send my eagle warrior army they walked over them like nothing, made a bunch of archers but than he mix in skirmishers, my main problem is whatever comp i make, i can't trade evenly or better, also my main units are useless against them, an army of jag warriors can't beat a small force of catas

[Marco]

If it's a duel, elite cataphracts+logistica is very expensive. Try to prevent your opponent from advancing to Imperial Age, as it's cheaper. I lost vs cataphracts+cannons+fortified walls protecting cannons in 2023 too (but I was Teutons). More experienced players told me Byzantines have no early bonuses, so you should focus on raiding them in Feudal Age with eagles. Also, try to take control of all gold pits on the map (and don't forget relics). Use monks, Aztecs have powerful monks and players do not research faith often on PvP, so try converting as many cataphracts as possible. I've had an Aztec opponent who converted my infantry using massed monks protected by castle fire besides jaguar warriors. But your best bet is to destroy your opponent's castles before they can mass cataphracts or before they can get the elite upgrade and the logistica. Castle Age cataphract is not as strong as fully upgraded one, so if you manage to get Garland Wars and keep him away from gold, that should do the trick.

But, I repeat, this is for duels. If it's team game, your Byzantine opponent will have gold from slinging and it's different.

[Quintem]

Byzantine is an average civ. They're one of the civs closest to being a generic all rounder, though they do learn into being solid hybrid and water map civ. Certainly not broken.

Cataphracts are one of the most expensive units in the game. They're hard to mass. They also have some of the most expensive upgrades in the unique tech for them AND the elite upgrade.

As Marco suggests monks are your best bet. Monks + a meat shield + siege. Aztec Skirmishers have a unique tech that gives them +1 range and damage. While they lack the last armour upgrade they do more damage and have better range as a result. Archers are also an issue for cataphracts with their low pierce armour. Using rams to crack open walls on the side if they've walled themselves in, send in some eagle warriors and push the front with monks + siege + other units forcing them to multitask.

EDIT: If you're playing a civ with strong cavalry you build that into catas. So Franks, Teutons, Lithuanians, Persians etc. can win stronger, cheaper heavy cavalry. Civs with strong archers would go that route.

EDIT 2: Don't make camels vs cataphracts, they're immune to their damage bonus. You're throwing gold away.

[Jäveln]

they are quite strong especially since they almost comes close to negating spearmen line bonus dmg and are prety much immune to camels. go range

[Heimdall313]

As someone who's used Byzantines for over 20 years... Cataphracts are literally useless against Knights + Crossbows. The reason you see Byzantines using their Knight line, despite the lack of attack bonuses, Blast Furnace, and Bloodlines, is because a Byzantine Cavalier is more useful and cheaper than Cataphract line in nearly every circumstance. You make cataphracts against Aztecs and Incas because they don't have Knights and you just need to screen Arbalests after that. You make Cataphracts against Goths and Vikings, because they flood infantry and their Knights are even worse than your Knights, and their Arbalests/Skirms are worse than your Arbalests/Skirms.
Cataphracts get chewed by Knights, Boyar, Battle Elephants, and basically any meat wall supported by Crossbows thanks to bad pierce armor that bleeds a LOT of gold.

If you're losing to Cataphracts, you're most likely either playing really bad (feeding unsupported Infantry into an open area with no Crossbows or Monks) or you've catastrophically lost the economic war and your opponent is incinerating resources just to humiliate you. Or you're Goths/Aztecs.

Oh and monks work too. Stone Walls are a complete stop to them, even Palisades are quite the speed bump. Magyar Huszars cost no Gold and are embarrassingly effective at killing Cataphracts with minor Cav. Archer support.

[Moist Butt]

I agree. broken unit with no counterplay. I am amazed that these incompetent devs havent done anything to nerf these units for over 20+ years.

[Kasbfaäfad]

Since when is Cata OP? I love byzantines but the only civs catas are useful is against meso civs when the enemy was not able to mass archers with few eagles as support against skirms.

[Moist Butt]

you sir are a sleeper. u just havent realize they are OP.

[KaRma]

Totally of course. Cataphract are OP. I guess they should have 40 HP, 5 attack and ride a sloth

[Moist Butt]

Yes I like the ideas being thrown. Although 40 hp might be a bit too low. Non elite has 110 hp, so maybe like 50 is more reasonable for non elite and like 70 for elite. I think 5 attack is pretty good for non elite and maybe like 6 attack for elite. These nerf should make this broken civ more balance and less oppressive to play against. Great ideas. keep em coming. Let make this game great again fellow gamers!

[Quintem]

I'm not sure I want to know what's going on above with the trolling.

[Moist Butt]

trolling? My godo friendo Quintem u need to open your eyes. The game has been unbalanced for way too long and its finally time for the community to take a stance. I for one am glad, that the community are starting to speak out about the blatant broken designs of the game. Brother Andalu has opened their eyes. You should too. Embrace it. Join us in our crusade against the infidel high elo players and the devs. They have ruled this game for too long. Justice must be served!

[True Beard]

Originally posted by Red mage:

i mainly play as Aztec and last time i send my eagle warrior army they walked over them like nothing, made a bunch of archers but than he mix in skirmishers, my main problem is whatever comp i make, i can't trade evenly or better, also my main units are useless against them, an army of jag warriors can't beat a small force of catas

With Aztecs, I think your best bet is to go Eagles, Arbs, and trebs. Mass archers and you’ll melt those Catas. Your eagles can handle the skirms and use their mobility to raid. If you run out of gold just resign. No way you’ll beat the Byzantines in a trash war. But it doesn’t hurt to try either.

[James3157]

If Cataphracts were to be nerfed in any way their techs might need to be made cheaper as well to compensate for a nerf. Cataphracts can be very useful in some ways, but there are limitations to the usefulness of Cataphracts as well at the same time. Also, Byzantines do not really have an impressive win rate on 1v1 until reaching 1900+ elo similar to Chinese with that 55.02% win rate but only for top ranking players. The difference in winrate for 1200+ elo (50.40% win rate) vs. 1900+ elo (55.02% win rate) on 1v1 maps is huge.