organ gun vs. scorpions

[James3157]

I watched a youtube video recently from MikeEmpires and was surprised how good the heavy scorpions are assuming you have enough of them despite them being expensive as well at the same time. At 53% hp left and losing 6 units out of 15 the elite organ guns were no match for the heavy scorpion. Not only that but the upgrade seems to be more costly for elite organ as well (1200 food and 500 gold) than heavy scorpion (800 food and 900 wood, but while they cost the same amount of resources when doing simple math at the same time gold might be needed more for late game overall than wood with the only other thing to make up for this is the feitoria building which is not cheap). While Portuguese do not have heavy scorpion upgrade, what advantage does the elite organ gun have if any have over a heavy scorpion when at the same time they cost similar to make (75 wood and gold vs. 80 wood and 70 gold)?

[James3157]

Here is the video I was referring to. You can either watch the entire 12:52 minute video or skip to 9:35 for organ gun vs. heavy scorpion. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ztc4ACI01aE&t=771s

[Vemonia]

I think scorpions are an underrated unit.

Many players avoid them and ask for buff because of how rarely pros use them. Pros use them occasionally and avoid them most of the time with a good reason, namely the fast paced game and the frequent skirmishes in low numbers, which are the areas where scorpions strughle the most.

[James3157]

Originally posted by Vemonia:

I think scorpions are an underrated unit.

Many players avoid them and ask for buff because of how rarely pros use them. Pros use them occasionally and avoid them most of the time with a good reason, namely the fast paced game and the frequent skirmishes in low numbers, which are the areas where scorpions strughle the most.

There is nothing specifically about organ guns that stand out as being better than scorpions in any way besides the elite upgrade vs Portuguese not getting the heavy scorpion upgrade, unless if someone can prove me wrong. Organ guns are probably one of the weakest unique units from a castle in the entire game.

[FloosWorld]

Organ Guns basically work as a shock unit in early Castle Age, especially on closed maps such as Arena. Iirc they also require Redemption to be converted to keeping them away with monks doesn't work normally.

[James3157]

Originally posted by FloosWorld:

Organ Guns basically work as a shock unit in early Castle Age, especially on closed maps such as Arena. Iirc they also require Redemption to be converted to keeping them away with monks doesn't work normally.

That is useful information, but scorpions require redemption as well and not just organ guns. They are also faster than scorpions (0.85 vs. 0.65), have faster reload time (3.45 vs. 3.6, faster build time (21 vs. 30), and faster frame delay (12 vs. 42), but apparently they have 0% accuracy as well while scorpions get 100% accuracy. There is however something about them that stands out as being better than scorpions in some way besides lacking the heavy scorpion upgrade such as for example being able to retreat more easily than scorpions, being able to reach opponents more quickly as well despite having less accuracy apparently than scorpion, and being able to reach transport ships more quickly as well than scorpions. Theoretically speaking (but I am not certain of this) I think that organ guns might be better for water maps than scorpions.

[Vemonia]

Yeah, organ guns feel way smoother to play:
- they are faster (0.85 vs 0.65) and are way less clunky (smaller hitbox), which is better to make them all hit at once or avoid mangonel shots.
- shots cannot be avoided at they shot many bullets in a cone. Do not get fooled by " inaccuracy" as you can hit with 0 accuracy, either your target or an "unntended target". And when you have a few organ guns, itv
- they can be upgraded (Portuguese have no heavy scorpions)

[FloosWorld]

Originally posted by Vemonia:

Yeah, organ guns feel way smoother to play:
- they are faster (0.85 vs 0.65) and are way less clunky (smaller hitbox), which is better to make them all hit at once or avoid mangonel shots.
- shots cannot be avoided at they shot many bullets in a cone. Do not get fooled by " inaccuracy" as you can hit with 0 accuracy, either your target or an "unntended target". And when you have a few organ guns, itv
- they can be upgraded (Portuguese have no heavy scorpions)

Basically this. Organ guns fire multiple projectiles whereas Scorpions only fire single ones. Scorpions are typically used against large groups of units in line formation due to their pass-through damage.

[Quintem]

I've know about Scorpions being decent against Organ Guns for a while, made the discovery with Romans. While Roman scorpions completely destroy Organ Guns on a gold ratio because they're cheaper but also fire so fast. I've had good results with other civs too. Unlike Mangonels it's harder to dodge the bolt from a scorpion with Organ Gun.

[James3157]

In the technology tree description it says that scorpions are weak against cavalry and siege weapons, but the organ gun is weak against cavalry and only mangonels which is interesting such as for example being faster than rams, bombard cannons, mangonels, siege towers (but are probably not used often on AoE II: DE) and even trebuchets might help explain why they are only labeled as weak against mangonels.

[James3157]

Originally posted by Quintem:

I've know about Scorpions being decent against Organ Guns for a while, made the discovery with Romans. While Roman scorpions completely destroy Organ Guns on a gold ratio because they're cheaper but also fire so fast. I've had good results with other civs too. Unlike Mangonels it's harder to dodge the bolt from a scorpion with Organ Gun.

I would also like to add apparently harder for scorpions to doge mangonels than organ guns. They only have .5 more speed than mangonels at 0.65 vs 0.6 speed. Also, Mike Empires video did not show organ guns using any micro for trying to avoid shots, but you are probably right and probably the best thing to do if a situation ever does happen where heavy scorpions are being used for an attack (regardless of whether Romans are using heavy scorpions or some other civilization) that organ guns would need to keep their distance from them rather than hit and run such as for example having them placed behind cavalry.

[Heimdall313]

Scorpion fires in a straight line, piercing units. Good against clumps.
Organ Gun fires wide, like those old wide-muzzle shotguns. Striker 12 was the international name iirc, I don't remember what they called them in Rhodesia. You're going to hit SOMETHING, and wider clumps means more targets.

Honestly, only reason I don't use heavy scorps more often is they're just so outrageously big on hit boxes, I can get Elephants to group together tighter. The slower build time is one thing, but even the glorious Roman ones bother me with how far apart they are; like Galleons.

[Quintem]

Originally posted by Heimdall313:

Scorpion fires in a straight line, piercing units. Good against clumps.
Organ Gun fires wide, like those old wide-muzzle shotguns. Striker 12 was the international name iirc, I don't remember what they called them in Rhodesia. You're going to hit SOMETHING, and wider clumps means more targets.

Honestly, only reason I don't use heavy scorps more often is they're just so outrageously big on hit boxes, I can get Elephants to group together tighter. The slower build time is one thing, but even the glorious Roman ones bother me with how far apart they are; like Galleons.

My scorpions love to stack up on each other, end up with this pretty tight ball of them.

[jonoliveira12]

Organ Guns have basically been nerfed to irrelevance, to be fair.
Specially when compared to Hussite Wagons, who do the same thing, but far better, and both Scorpions and Magonels have recently been buffed.

[FloosWorld]

Yeah current Organs are good vs lightly armored units and fall flat vs heavy ones.

[jonoliveira12]

Originally posted by FloosWorld:

Yeah current Organs are good vs lightly armored units and fall flat vs heavy ones.

Not even. They are basically only good vs Skirms and Spearmen, but Light Cav and Hussars will completely destroy them.
Ports already have good ESkirms, discounted Champs, Mangonels and Cavaliers, and even both discounted and tech boosted Hand Cannoneers.

There is just no place for OGs, as they are now.
In fact, Ports dropped out of teh game almost entirely, as it is not not even a Gunpowder civ, it is an Eco boom civ.