Sicilians vs Ethiopians or Indians or Saracens, Maya, or Vietnam

[yuzhonglu]

Is pretty much auto lose for Ethiopia, Indian, Maya, Vietnam or Saracen if the game gets to imperial, with both sides about even. Camels and archers and Eagles do like nothing to sargeants, and Sicilians get siege rams against handgunners.

Also, it turns out Sicilian econ bonus is pretty strong, on par with most of the factions listed above, and their skirms, scouts, knights, and pikes are stronger than average in feudal and castle thx to their -50% bonus damage reduction bonus. Their knights trade evenly with camels and their pikes take reduced trample damage from elephants and if there's ever a feudal skirm or tower war (like on nomad) the Sicilians will win.

[jonoliveira12]

Archers absolutely destroy Serjeants, Serjeanst are too slow to catch up and can be kited to death.

Also, all those civs have eco bonii, while Sicilians do not, so they should always be ahead in the game, regardless, with either more units, bigger eco or more upgrades.

The 50% damage reduction is ony to bonus damage, so they take full damage from the normal attack, just not full damage from bonus values.

Sicilians are literally just an average civ that loses in competitive environment.

Viper got crushed yesterday when he went for First Crusade against Crossbows. Crossbows murder Serjeants.

[NOC | Mati]

At your level civ-wins certainly arent a thing lol

[yuzhonglu]

Originalmente postado por jonoliveira12:

Archers absolutely destroy Serjeants, Serjeanst are too slow to catch up and can be kited to death.

Also, all those civs have eco bonii, while Sicilians do not, so they should always be ahead in the game, regardless, with either more units, bigger eco or more upgrades.

The 50% damage reduction is ony to bonus damage, so they take full damage from the normal attack, just not full damage from bonus values.

Sicilians are literally just an average civ that loses in competitive environment.

Viper got crushed yesterday when he went for First Crusade against Crossbows. Crossbows murder Serjeants.

Uh, no. Unless those archers are cho ko nu. Elite Sargeants are 8 pierce armor so your archers do 2 damage each.

While you're busy microing your archers at one group of Sargeants, another group is massacring your vills.

There's also the minor point you can put Sargeants in rams, which is probably what viper didn't do. With First Crusade you save enough resources you can afford rams. You send like 3 groups of 3 rams of sargeants in multiple locations. Good luck dealing with that with archers since archers need to be blobbed to do anything.

Also, I'm talking about Imperial. Not Castle, so your Viper anecdote has no bearing.

But hey, you don't play Ranked. So, whatever.

[yuzhonglu]

Originalmente postado por El_Matador:

At your level civ-wins certainly arent a thing lol

Tell that to Jon Oliveriea who doesn't play Ranked.

[Akos]

Plumes eat Serjaents due to bonus damage.
Vietnamese have much better eco and military bonuses, also Rattans have +3 attack and high mobility which is enough especially with some meatshield
Ethiopians are much better in the earlygame also they have superior siege that can counter Serjaents easily
Saracens have HC, CA and good melee units which should be good vs rams and serjaents
Indians can struggle though

Originalmente postado por yuzhonglu:

Originalmente postado por El_Matador:

At your level civ-wins certainly arent a thing lol

Tell that to Jon Oliveriea who doesn't play Ranked.

He's 750 1v1 elo.

[yuzhonglu]

Well that explains a lot. (750 ELO).

But in regards to Akos' points:

1. Plumes do 1 damage per shot to fully upgraded Sargeants.

2. Vietnamese gets their wood bonus earlier, but their econ bonuses are equivalent by imperial. By post Imperial, Sicilians are better. Also, don't discount the 100% TC build time. It means an extra 1.5 villagers per TC built. By the time everyone has 4 TCs its equivalent to the Viking free handcart and wheelbarrow.

3. Totally wrong. Have you actually played it or tested it? Scorpions do reduced damage to sargeants. Scorpions do piercing damage, which sargeants have a lot of armor for, AND most scorpion damage comes from pass through, which counts as bonus damage....

And Mangonels vs mass infantry and rams? Pfft.

Like have you actually played Mayans vs Sicilians or Ethiopia vs Sicilians in imperial, where the Sicilian is going ram/sargeant?

[Akos]

1. Plumes do 2 damage, which is more than enough with hit and run
2. Sicilians aren't better. Rattans outmicro Serjeants with their extra speed and they do 3 damage, which is enough. Most of games end early, where Vietnamese are clearly favoured with their bonuses. 100% TC speed is just minor, you can't even afford army and villagers in early Castle Age with this civ from multiple TCs. 4 TC is not even a thing early on, when villagers matter the most. On closed maps where you can boom, but you can't even afford villagers from 4 TCs as Sicilians, but you can with Vietnamese thanks to their eco bonus which is=6 free farms
3. Ethiopian Scorpions are sick, they even kill Huskarls with meatshield, they laugh at Serjeants.
4. You just need a stronger melee unit vs Serjeant+Ram f.e Cavaliers or army compositions of ranged+melee. Siege Onagers with good micro are enough with meatshield, HC+Hussar work pretty well and Serjeants aren't Huskarls so you could easily use Arbalest even with 2 damage
5. Sicilians have no counters to Ethiopian or any siege deathballs if the siege player pays attention

[yuzhonglu]

1. No, Elite Plumes do 1 damage to Elite Sargeants. Look it up.
2. Ram/Sargeant.
3. Ram/Sargeant.

Also, how are you going to get deathball if 45 Elite Sargeants with 8 pierce armor show up with 5 capped rams 2 minutes into imperial? Think of it as fighting Malian Champions, except that 35 of them pop immediately with First Crusade. Also, you're the Ethiopians, so most of your army is probably archers at this point. I've seen people micro them with archers, hilariously. It takes like 20+ seconds to kill a single sargeant, at which point I'm in their econ destroying everything.

All your comments sound good "in theory". Then you actually play the game and realize it doesn't work that way.

[Akos]

1. Plumes do 2 damage.
2. You add a melee unit. Light Cavalry.
3. You add Onagers or BBC
4. This situation doesn't exist in the game, expect on Arena, where 2 Onagers kill that and buy time behind the walls.

[NOC | Mati]

Elite plumes have hidden bonus dmg of +2 against infantry, better you look it up.

[yuzhonglu]

Originalmente postado por Ákos:

1. Plumes do 2 damage.
2. You add a melee unit. Light Cavalry.
3. You add Onagers or BBC
4. This situation doesn't exist in the game, expect on Arena, where 2 Onagers kill that and buy time behind the walls.

1. 2 damage. Fine. LOL.
2. Light cav die immediately to sargeants in rams.
3. It happens a lot in Arena.
4. Nothing stopping a good player from walling and booming on other maps. Donjons with Sargeants underneath are fine on defense. You're not siege pushing that in feudal/castle.

Again, have you actually played this? What's your SR?

[Akos]

Everytime I spent explaining you is waste of time, you aren't capable of understanding the basic game.

[yuzhonglu]

You explain nothing. You only make rude comments.

[Quarantined_villager]

Just play as Sicilians to find out their weekness

[yuzhonglu]

I've played a bunch of them on Nomad and Arena and they don't have many weaknesses. On Arena they're like the best civ ever. And on Nomad their farm bonus and donjons are pretty damn useful in extended feudal wars, and they can go either archers or scouts. They may have nerfed it by now, but the 100% TC build bonus on nomad was OP before the nerf.

Only time I've lost on Arena is when my stone is forward and they castle drop me with like the Spanish or Chinese or Burmese. So yeah, I guess those UUs are problematic, but Conqs/Arambai/Cho Ko Nu give EVERYONE problems.