gunpowder units op

[lindell]

yep, seriously need to increase reload time or increase the cost of them.
or make imp only
this is ridiculous

[James3157]

Gunpowder units (including the bombard cannon mainly because they have poor accuracy vs. other units that is worse than the accuracy from hand cannoners as well) are not as good as you might think besides the cannon galleon (although, they are vulnerable if they are not protected enough especially from enemy ships) and learn how to counter them. Also, very few civilizations on AoE II: DE have gunpowder units available from the Castle Age.

[KingKickAss]

Getting stomped by the Turks and Bohemians huh?

[BIT Bear]

They are powerful it's true. But also valuable and expensive to replace.

[Quintem]

There are only four gunpowder units in castle age.

-Turk Janissary
-Bohemian Hussite Wagon
-Bohemian Hand Cannons
-Portuguese Organ Gun

Three of those require castles. Gunpowder units are strong as they should be but generally not OP and can be overcome with correct counters. They also tend to be expensive.

[KingKickAss]

Originally posted by Quintem:

There are only four gunpowder units in castle age.

-Turk Janissary
-Bohemian Hussite Wagon
-Bohemian Hand Cannons
-Portuguese Organ Gun

Three of those require castles. Gunpowder units are strong as they should be but generally not OP and can be overcome with correct counters. They also tend to be expensive.

You forgot Conqs.
OP plays mainly arena which is probably a part of it too.

[Quintem]

Originally posted by KingKickAss:

OP plays mainly arena which is probably a part of it too.

I knew I'd forget one.

They got nerfed recently too...

[KingKickAss]

Originally posted by Quintem:

Originally posted by KingKickAss:

OP plays mainly arena which is probably a part of it too.

I knew I'd forget one.

They got nerfed recently too...

Janissariess too, right? I know the Hussite Wagons just got a pretty significant buff, so its nice to see that they're getting some time in the spotlight. Spanish and Portuguese are sitting at a 50% WR.

[Quintem]

Originally posted by KingKickAss:

Originally posted by Quintem:

I knew I'd forget one.

They got nerfed recently too...

Janissariess too, right? I know the Hussite Wagons just got a pretty significant buff, so its nice to see that they're getting some time in the spotlight. Spanish and Portuguese are sitting at a 50% WR.

Janissary got -1 range in for the non-elite version.
Hussite Wagons change still baffles me a bit. It seems to have maybe turned out a buff even though on paper and in tests (Spirit of the Law did a breakdown) they appeared nerfed DPS wise. Being able to micro them turned out to be a bigger boon than one would expect.

[KingKickAss]

Originally posted by Quintem:

Originally posted by KingKickAss:

Janissariess too, right? I know the Hussite Wagons just got a pretty significant buff, so its nice to see that they're getting some time in the spotlight. Spanish and Portuguese are sitting at a 50% WR.

Janissary got -1 range in for the non-elite version.
Hussite Wagons change still baffles me a bit. It seems to have maybe turned out a buff even though on paper and in tests (Spirit of the Law did a breakdown) they appeared nerfed DPS wise. Being able to micro them turned out to be a bigger boon than one would expect.

I think the change was a bit lazy though, they're basically just tanky organ guns now. I think they could have made them like a land turtle ship. Obviously not the same damage, but a slow firing gunpowder unit with a higher damage projectile and a relatively short range. The shorter range would also naturally put them in front of HCs and other ranged units too.

It did have that kind of cannonball projectile before the rework. It would make the unit a lot more unique compared to just being an organ gun with different stats.

[James3157]

At least the Janissaries even if they were nerfed slightly with range for non elite units they are still better than hand cannoners especially when upgraded to elite from the Imperial Age. Also, even with a few civilizations having bonuses for hand cannoners they are still less annoying overall than Janissaries and Conquistadors. As for the Portuguese and Bohemians I have not played as them yet, but again there are only four civilizations total (Spanish, Portuguese, Bohemians, and Turks) that can even get gunpowder units as early as the Castle Age. I would also like to argue as well that Portuguese (similar to Vikings at least on the DE version) are actually one of the weaker civilizations for land maps contrary to water maps.

[Flakstruk]

I wondered why they didn't make the mobile towers. Garrisonable ect

[Marco]

Originally posted by lindell:

yep, seriously need to increase reload time or increase the cost of them.
or make imp only
this is ridiculous

I'd increase both. Portuguese hand cannoneers spam is basically invincible.

Originally posted by James3157:

At least the Janissaries even if they were nerfed slightly with range for non elite units they are still better than hand cannoners especially when upgraded to elite from the Imperial Age. Also, even with a few civilizations having bonuses for hand cannoners they are still less annoying overall than Janissaries and Conquistadors. As for the Portuguese and Bohemians I have not played as them yet, but again there are only four civilizations total (Spanish, Portuguese, Bohemians, and Turks) that can even get gunpowder units as early as the Castle Age. I would also like to argue as well that Portuguese (similar to Vikings at least on the DE version) are actually one of the weaker civilizations for land maps contrary to water maps.

Portuguese take advantage of arquebus, which is aimbot - pardon, thumb ring! - for cannoneers. I assure you, a spam of cannoneers + bombards is really annoying on 1vs1. Oh, and not to mention the crossbowmen spam in early Castle Age. And this is on Arabia.
In EW Team on Atacama, some months ago, I've had a Portuguese opponent who spammed cannoneers+arbalesters and then turtled with walls. By the time I had skirmishers and trebuchets, he threw at me an endless horde of cavaliers.

They are a very solid civ on land.

[chaoticbalrog]

I don't think that gunpowder units are OP at all. First off, they can never increase their range or damage outside of unit upgrades. Second, the common gunpowder units need Chemistry researched and unless playing as Bohemians, you can only research Chemistry in the Imperial Age. Third, not everyone gets gunpowder units. Fourth, they are already pretty expensive with base costs since a regular old Hand Cannoneer eats up 45 Food and 50 Gold to train. Doesn't seem that bad in small numbers, but it adds up really fast if you need to train many of them. Bombard Cannons cost 225 Wood AND 225 Gold to train, making them the most expensive unit to train in the game.

[Marco]

Originally posted by chaoticbalrog:

I don't think that gunpowder units are OP at all. First off, they can never increase their range or damage outside of unit upgrades. Second, the common gunpowder units need Chemistry researched and unless playing as Bohemians, you can only research Chemistry in the Imperial Age. Third, not everyone gets gunpowder units. Fourth, they are already pretty expensive with base costs since a regular old Hand Cannoneer eats up 45 Food and 50 Gold to train. Doesn't seem that bad in small numbers, but it adds up really fast if you need to train many of them. Bombard Cannons cost 225 Wood AND 225 Gold to train, making them the most expensive unit to train in the game.

And yet, overwhelming hand cannoneer spam + 5-6 bombard cannons (besides 3-4 trebuchets at the very least) as Portuguese/Burgundians/Byzantines can still happen, just castle drop in your opponent's base and he will never comeback. 45 food 50 gold in Imperial is not expensive at all.
BTW, cannoneers are op because they have 17 attack (same as élite Teutonic knights) + another 10 attack bonus vs infantry. You can take advantage of them, while Teutonic knights are a troll/clown unit.

[chaoticbalrog]

Originally posted by Marco - slow ass garbanzo:

Originally posted by chaoticbalrog:

I don't think that gunpowder units are OP at all. First off, they can never increase their range or damage outside of unit upgrades. Second, the common gunpowder units need Chemistry researched and unless playing as Bohemians, you can only research Chemistry in the Imperial Age. Third, not everyone gets gunpowder units. Fourth, they are already pretty expensive with base costs since a regular old Hand Cannoneer eats up 45 Food and 50 Gold to train. Doesn't seem that bad in small numbers, but it adds up really fast if you need to train many of them. Bombard Cannons cost 225 Wood AND 225 Gold to train, making them the most expensive unit to train in the game.

And yet, overwhelming hand cannoneer spam + 5-6 bombard cannons (besides 3-4 trebuchets at the very least) as Portuguese/Burgundians/Byzantines can still happen, just castle drop in your opponent's base and he will never comeback. 45 food 50 gold in Imperial is not expensive at all.

It's essentially your fault if an enemy Burgundian/Byzantine/Portuguese player castle drops into your base. Also, Hand Cannoneers are supposed to be a hard counter to infantry, which is why they get so much damage against them.