The new Chinese : what do you think ?

[Percussigant]

As you may already know, the biggest patch that AoE2DE ever saw is just around the corner and a lot of the upcoming changes have already been discovered.

One in particular caught my attention : Chinese will now start with 2 extra villagers instead of the former 3, and with just enough food to train one immediately. (Source : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6PcoAhGxm0 at 22:58)

Historically Chinese has always been one of those "high skill floor" civs that perform excellently at high level and terribly everywhere else. Most content creators who commented on the future patch notes seem to agree that this change will make them much more accessible to the average player.

I've always wanted to play Chinese on the AoE2 ranked 1v1 ladder but I eventually had to accept the fact that I'm just not good enough to pull off their unique start consistently enough to make them work, so I'm hyped at that change and I will definitely give them a try after the update drops.

Where I am worried however is that Chinese is one of those unique civs that need build orders that are specific to them to make them work (and, on a side note, you would have to know several of them to really capitalize on the versatility of the civ), and those BOs will probably become obsolete with their upcoming reworked start. I imagine you would now start by training a villager before researching loom, but I have a feeling they will still require the player to manually drop off food at precise timings to keep the TC running.

Anyway, I was curious what people thought about this. Do you like the change ? Do you consider playing them more once the update lands ?

[Kampfschwein Fjonda]

Do you agree that they have a worse start now (i.e. 1 vil behind compared to 20y-Chinese history)?
I don't understand why having a weaker civ with a tinsy bit easier start makes for more fun.
And I'm not even sure if the start is much easier, you will still be low on food for half of dark age.

Signed by: not a fan

[Vemonia]

Originally posted by Fjonda:

Do you agree that they have a worse start now (i.e. 1 vil behind compared to 20y-Chinese history)?
I don't understand why having a weaker civ with a tinsy bit easier start makes for more fun.
And I'm not even sure if the start is much easier, you will still be low on food for half of dark age.

Signed by: not a fan

I fully agree with this.

[Percussigant]

Originally posted by Fjonda:

Do you agree that they have a worse start now (i.e. 1 vil behind compared to 20y-Chinese history)?
I don't understand why having a weaker civ with a tinsy bit easier start makes for more fun.
And I'm not even sure if the start is much easier, you will still be low on food for half of dark age.

Signed by: not a fan

Thanks for the input !

I agree that it is indeed a (small) nerf for the higher level players who can consistently manually drop off the food at the right time and snowball their economy with it. But for the vast majority of players, who cannot do it consistently, I believe it is a buff, because there should be less dropoffs needed to keep the TC running and less opportunities to screw up.

The Chinese bonus has always been a double-edged sword. I'm fine with blunting that sword a little bit if it means I am less likely to hurt myself with it, so to speak.

[Quarantined_villager]

I think the change is not to have more fun but to make it easier for a new players without change too much the legacy civ start

[Kampfschwein Fjonda]

Thumbsup for taking it so well!

The more I think of it, the more I smell a foul marketing gag (like putting 20% less pringles in the box, keeping the price the same and advertising the improved product).

Playing Chinese with +3 vils and loom first puts pros 2 vils ahead if they collect food perfectly. Let's imagine we (I am not good with Chinese either) do it a bit worse, so we are only say ~1 vil ahead.
With the new start we get roughly the same output as with our imperfect 3 vil start!!
Once we spend the 50 food for our 6th vil we are again at the old start, only #6 didn't work for 25 seconds and we have no loom!
New idea: What would you prefer as a good boom setting: starting with 100 vils, no food or 4850 food and 3 vils?

Also compare to Mayan start +1 vil and -50 food. That way the 2nd Chinese vil costs -100 food and -50 wood. It is a ripoff.

Hera, best pro in the world, also hates the new start.

Maybe public uproar (?) will conquer the marketing gag?

[DesertRose92]

On Arabia with +3 Villagers and -200 Food you can collect 50 Food for your first Villager within 40 seconds. That puts you 2.4 Villagers ahead of a generic Civ. On maps with shore fish around your TC you can be even faster.

With +2 Villagers and -150 Food you can be at best 2 Villagers ahead of a generic Civ.

That change seems to be less about making the Chinese start more newbie friendly and more about making the Civ less strong for very good players and / or specific maps.

[I Eat Pain]

cant the issue be solved by making the 3 starting villagers into a new unit that works less efficiently in dark age only...

[KingKickAss]

I don't like it, it makes them less unique and less interesting. If they make changes like this, eventually a lot of the civilizations are going to just blend together and be less exciting than they are.

[jonoliveira12]

They are just worse,what was the hardest start in the game, in a high risk, high reward type of gameplay you had to master before you could use the civ properly, is now barely an inconvenienc taht, at most, gets you one Vill ahead by Feudal Age.

[Flakstruk]

I'd say a bad "newb+random civ selection experience" is a worse net result for the community that inconveniencing people who rhink second of production time in a video game actually matter

[Krosis Priest]

Wait, 1 starting villager extra is a groundbreaking difference that disrupts an entire Excel file clicking order and causes strong emotional reactions from people?

god, multiplayer is an incredible joke

[Kampfschwein Fjonda]

Yes, it is a huge difference if you run 100 meters in 11 or 12 seconds.
Only the fat kid with 20 seconds usually doesn't look down on the 12 sec guys.

With kind regards from the EKSL [Evil Keyboradsmasher League]

[Flakstruk]

Well if you're bragging about running 11 seconds in a kids footrace, he's probably right

[Percussigant]

Originally posted by Krosis:

Wait, 1 starting villager extra is a groundbreaking difference that disrupts an entire Excel file clicking order and causes strong emotional reactions from people?

god, multiplayer is an incredible joke

It does not seem like much, and admittedly it isn't a big difference early on, but it's the kind of detail that can very easily have a snowball effect. A few seconds of idle town center here and there, a few poor decisions, and suddenly your opponent has 2 or 3 more villagers than you, which then turn into a 9 or 10 vill advantage a few minutes later, and so on, and then the match becomes an uphill battle. There is a reason why Chinese have had one of the worst winrates in the game (outside of high level matches) for years.

If nothing else, given how difficult they were to play before, I'm glad to see them get this nudge towards being more accessible. I've played about 200 ranked games so far and only saw Chinese once. Seeing Portuguese, Mongols or Franks every game gets boring, and if breaking off with tradition is needed to see more variety, I'm all for it.

[TheDiaper]

Originally posted by Krosis:

Wait, 1 starting villager extra is a groundbreaking difference that disrupts an entire Excel file clicking order and causes strong emotional reactions from people?

god, multiplayer is an incredible joke

Im pretty sure you are a failure in every single part of your life.

EDIT:
Hey and to the PC mod, heres the reason:
Anyone who has ever succeed (even the slightest success) in something must know a single bit of change makes a huge difference to the outcome, let it be sports, academic studies, career.