An essay on infinite queue implications

[Godflesh]

As the title suggest, I started this post to work collectively in order to provide arguments in favor and against this feature.

For those who don't know. Infinite queue is a feature that's already implemented in aom. Where you can assign a building to produce a set of units in an indefinite amount (as long as you can afford it with resources and poblation cap)

Please provide the reasons why do you think that an infinite queue is a good/Bad idea.

I personally think it's a good idea because I disagree with the fact that beig good at the game means being good at remembering to queue unit production and punishing players for not being able to be "always aware of everything".

I will try to summarize the collective work here so I can build the essay. If I'm wrong please correct.
Arguments in favor:
+ Good when resources are tight (So you don't need to constantly return to queue more on a building)
+ Helps achieving a better economy (right now, queing takes on the spot the resources, while the indefinite queue only takes resources as needed, like farm reseeding)

Arguments against:
- We already have a feature to put units into queue holding shift.
- There are custom made scenarios which tackle this specific type of play (cba)
- Development resources are scarce and should not be wasted on this feature.
- In AOM there's some controversy on this feature.

[Kampfschwein Fjonda]

Do you know that by holding shift you can queue 5 units at once?
Do you use groups / hotkeys to access all your stables / archeries / barracks / castles at once?
Do you build 10-20 military buildings of the same kind towards late game?

A "good" player with all the above will find the infinite spamming only useful in very few long late game trash war scenarios.

[NisseDood]

Still nothing wrong with adding it for people who more want to play long late game games with friends and such.
No reason to not add a basic feature just because pros dont use it.

[Kampfschwein Fjonda]

On the other hand there is cba mode in lobbies, where military units start spawning from second 1 in the game.
That could be even more what your're looking for.

[NisseDood]

I question more why you are even against it.

[Kampfschwein Fjonda]

A) B ecause dev time is precious and should not be wasted.
B) A beginner spamming infinite swordmen / scouts in feudal age will never reach castle age.

I've given my input and am quitting this thread.

[Devang]

Even half the AoM playerbase doesn't like auto queue. It's a point of discussion if it should be removed in Retold or not

[NisseDood]

Originally posted by Devang:

Even half the AoM playerbase doesn't like auto queue. It's a point of discussion if it should be removed in Retold or not

Put option to enable/disable in options.
There easy solution so now both sides can be happy.

[Bob of Mage]

I find it useful when resources are tight and I can't queue all the units I want all at once. For example early game when I am creating lots of workers I don't want to return to queue more every time I get 50 more food.

Late game when I am hitting the pop cap, and am on the attack, I can set a mix of units to be auto built, and have them rally near the front. It allows me to focus on stuff besides requeuing the same handful of units during tense battles.

I my view it is a QoL option like farms reseeding by default.

[dannyc2012]

Originally posted by Devang:

Even half the AoM playerbase doesn't like auto queue. It's a point of discussion if it should be removed in Retold or not

AOM is not same as AOE II

AOM units contribute differently to pop cap. In AOE II Skirms take up same space as Siege Elephants. Easy to hit pop cap limits in AOM with useless units

[Krosis Priest]

I see no reason why not. QoL features are always good, especially ones like these that have an obvious drawback (forget about it, and you run out of resources eventually). Just add it as an option, either on player level or for game level (so the sweaty crowd can keep convincing themselves that more clicking = better player), and there are no downsides.

[Godflesh]

Originally posted by Fjonda:

Do you know that by holding shift you can queue 5 units at once?
Do you use groups / hotkeys to access all your stables / archeries / barracks / castles at once?
Do you build 10-20 military buildings of the same kind towards late game?

A "good" player with all the above will find the infinite spamming only useful in very few long late game trash war scenarios.

Thanks for your response. It's a valid point but putting a queue of 20 units takes you the resources of 20 units away and therefore you are somewhat "punished" by not letting you use those resources on researching tech for example

As a more ilustrative example of this, previously, farm reservation would take 60 wood away per farm (i.e. if you want to queue 10 farms, you will lose 600 wood on the spot), but with the new feature already implemented, you can now queue farms "on demand" and save the hassle of queuing up more farms and you only "lose" as much wood as you need to replenish farms.

(Please excuse my english)

[Godflesh]

Originally posted by Devang:

Even half the AoM playerbase doesn't like auto queue. It's a point of discussion if it should be removed in Retold or not

Can I ask you where can I find those topics discussed so I can learn more about that?? I tried to find something at aomheavens but couldn't figure out how to search in their forum

[KingKickAss]

I feel like not having auto que falls under "part of the game" territory for AoE2. I wouldn't say its the same as auto reseed because farms are how you get one of the game's resources and you're always going to want them to be going.

A big thing with AoE2's gameplay as an RTS is how micro intensive it is, pretty much the whole game and how well you do is almost entirely based on your ability to manage a bunch of things at the same time. Can you say micro is big in every RTS? Sure you can, but a lot of RTS games don't scale nearly as hard with micro as AoE2 does.

Autoque would mean there's less for you to keep track of and manage, in other words, somebody won't be punished for tunneling as much as they would before since they don't have to keep looking away to manage their base.

I want to ask why though? How does having autoque actually benefit you, and do you think it will actually change anything in the grand scheme of things?
If you cant keep up with micro and want to autoque for assistance, the opponent that's outmicroing you is also going to be able to take a load off and just continue to outmicro you somewhere else. If its because of a lategame spam fest, you can just group your production structures and que units in them all simultaneously in just a few seconds.
If you are playing single player against AIs, then its reasonable(The AI's micro isn't skill based obviously), but it would also build a bad habit if you ever decide to go into PVP.

I think to sum it up, a line needs to be drawn somewhere, and I think autoque would be stepping over that line for AoE2.

[NisseDood]

Originally posted by KingKickAss:

I feel like not having auto que falls under "part of the game" territory for AoE2. I wouldn't say its the same as auto reseed because farms are how you get one of the game's resources and you're always going to want them to be going.

A big thing with AoE2's gameplay as an RTS is how micro intensive it is, pretty much the whole game and how well you do is almost entirely based on your ability to manage a bunch of things at the same time. Can you say micro is big in every RTS? Sure you can, but a lot of RTS games don't scale nearly as hard with micro as AoE2 does.

Autoque would mean there's less for you to keep track of and manage, in other words, somebody won't be punished for tunneling as much as they would before since they don't have to keep looking away to manage their base.

I want to ask why though? How does having autoque actually benefit you, and do you think it will actually change anything in the grand scheme of things?
If you cant keep up with micro and want to autoque for assistance, the opponent that's outmicroing you is also going to be able to take a load off and just continue to outmicro you somewhere else. If its because of a lategame spam fest, you can just group your production structures and que units in them all simultaneously in just a few seconds.
If you are playing single player against AIs, then its reasonable(The AI's micro isn't skill based obviously), but it would also build a bad habit if you ever decide to go into PVP.

I think to sum it up, a line needs to be drawn somewhere, and I think autoque would be stepping over that line for AoE2.

Casual players are just as important as hardcore.
People might not even want to play online against randoms but want it if they like playing solo or co-op against Ai, pvp between friends or other simple reasons.

[Devang]

Originally posted by Godflesh:

Originally posted by Devang:

Even half the AoM playerbase doesn't like auto queue. It's a point of discussion if it should be removed in Retold or not

Can I ask you where can I find those topics discussed so I can learn more about that?? I tried to find something at aomheavens but couldn't figure out how to search in their forum

As an example - https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=Lq2tXofg8lw

This guy, Boit, is by far the biggest AoM youtuber. The opinions he forms and puts out are discussed on his private discord server. His opinions influence much of the active competitive playerbase. Think of someone like SotL, T90, or Hera putting out a video with an opinion. That issue immediately becomes the hot topic in the AoE2 community

AoM HeavenGames is a dead forum. Reddit and RTS Sanctuary are somewhat active forums. But most of the AoM community is on Discord. Both private and public servers

Originally posted by dannyc2012:

Originally posted by Devang:

Even half the AoM playerbase doesn't like auto queue. It's a point of discussion if it should be removed in Retold or not

AOM is not same as AOE II

AOM units contribute differently to pop cap. In AOE II Skirms take up same space as Siege Elephants. Easy to hit pop cap limits in AOM with useless units

If AoM is not the same as AoE2, then the OP should not use AoM as a support for their argument?

The quality of units has nothing to do with it. It's all about the perceived lowering of the skill ceiling