How do you counter a Hand Cannoneer rush?

[Green Raven]

They tear through skirmishers,,, what counters them?

[Heimdall313]

Skirmishers do work, actually, you just want to add Light Cav/Hussar rushing the front or hitting from another side. LC/Hussar will help bust the siege that typically accompanies the HCs.

Even if you're losing 3-5 skirmishers per hand cannon, you're actually winning the attrition cost. Crossbows and Arbalests, especially if you have Thumb Ring, outrange HCs and inflict serious damage. More accurate, better rate of fire. Remember, each HC costs 50 gold, so if you drop 5 of them with 20 skirmishers that's more than the cost of a Bombard Cannon.

[Boshiken]

"Hand Cannoneers are treated to be archers (even though they use firearms) for purposes of attack bonuses, so Skirmishers, Ghulams, and Huskarls have attack bonuses against them, and Huskarls also have a high defensive bonus against their piercing damage. They are of course also gunpowder units, giving Condottieri and Winged Hussars attack bonuses against them as well. Being foot units with low hit points, they are also vulnerable to Mangonels and Scorpions, and they perform poorly against towers and Castles."

"Hand Cannoneers have a powerful attack but have a slow firing rate, and their shots fly off in random directions (within radial proximity to the vector leading to their target), so their accuracy at long range is poor. They do +10 bonus damage against infantry (except the Condottiero) and another +1 against Spearmen, and their accuracy is less of a problem against the larger cavalry, making them deadly at close range. If maneuvered properly, Hand Cannoneers may also take down siege weapons with great efficiency but Onagers can still pose a threat to them due to their range."

[meleander]

Originally posted by Green Raven:

They tear through skirmishers,,, what counters them?

Hmm, mangonels?

[Fido]

Skirmishers still counter them because they're gold-intensive, expensive units (including Chemistry as an entry cost also, roughly equivalent of a unit upgrade). It is literally possible to keep throwing skirmishers at an enemy by the time the player has long run out of gold to be able to make hand cannoneers with. The gold you save can be spent on mangonels (only use behind cover of units, such as likewise-cheap spearmen, because any gunpowder units shred siege), or even to buy stone for castles, since hand cannoneers are almost as awful as crossbowmen at fighting castles.

[Boshiken]

Originally posted by DANGER ☠ POSSUM:

Skirmishers still counter them because they're gold-intensive, expensive units (including Chemistry as an entry cost also, roughly equivalent of a unit upgrade). It is literally possible to keep throwing skirmishers at an enemy by the time the player has long run out of gold to be able to make hand cannoneers with. The gold you save can be spent on mangonels (only use behind cover of units, such as likewise-cheap spearmen, because any gunpowder units shred siege), or even to buy stone for castles, since hand cannoneers are almost as awful as crossbowmen at fighting castles.

you just have to pump them out faster
also cheap cavalry in front

[DesertRose92]

Are we talking about Death Match here?

On most maps trying to rush to Hand Cannoneers takes way too long unless you have a closed map like Arena and a Civ like Bohemians, Byzantines or Turks.

[meleander]

Originally posted by Green Raven:

They tear through skirmishers,,, what counters them?

Wait, on what elo?

Hand cannoneer rush is like having a fast turtle. You can push with hand cannoneer, but you can't rush with them. Rush is about doing a quick action, and having cannoneers means you need to go to imperial age and research chemistry.

[Deggo]

Originally posted by meleander:

Originally posted by Green Raven:

They tear through skirmishers,,, what counters them?

Wait, on what elo?

Hand cannoneer rush is like having a fast turtle. You can push with hand cannoneer, but you can't rush with them. Rush is about doing a quick action, and having cannoneers means you need to go to imperial age and research chemistry.

Bohemians.

[Quintem]

Originally posted by Green Raven:

They tear through skirmishers,,, what counters them?

As others have mentioned applies but also knights. They close the gap and can tank the shots.

Originally posted by meleander:

Originally posted by Green Raven:

They tear through skirmishers,,, what counters them?

Wait, on what elo?

Hand cannoneer rush is like having a fast turtle. You can push with hand cannoneer, but you can't rush with them. Rush is about doing a quick action, and having cannoneers means you need to go to imperial age and research chemistry.

Arena fast Imp. Died to it yesterday 1. Because I suck at Arena 2. Because I did not know what to do.

[meleander]

Originally posted by Quintem:

Originally posted by Green Raven:

They tear through skirmishers,,, what counters them?

As others have mentioned applies but also knights. They close the gap and can tank the shots.

Originally posted by meleander:

Wait, on what elo?

Hand cannoneer rush is like having a fast turtle. You can push with hand cannoneer, but you can't rush with them. Rush is about doing a quick action, and having cannoneers means you need to go to imperial age and research chemistry.

Arena fast Imp. Died to it yesterday 1. Because I suck at Arena 2. Because I did not know what to do.

Hera talks about Arena: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gXI4XGMPzQ

You can learn fast castle and castle drop :D

[Quintem]

Originally posted by meleander:

Originally posted by Quintem:

As others have mentioned applies but also knights. They close the gap and can tank the shots.



Arena fast Imp. Died to it yesterday 1. Because I suck at Arena 2. Because I did not know what to do.

Hera talks about Arena: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gXI4XGMPzQ

You can learn fast castle and castle drop :D

1. I'm bad at it because I feel like it's the perfect map for bad players. Not the kind of bad players that are low ELO but the ones that rely on cheesy strategies and gimmicks to win and I can't scout whatever BS they've got planned. It frustrates me, which makes me play worse.

2. I'm not doing castle drops on people. Because of the reasons above.

Thanks for the video though I am subbed to Hera but because YouTube likes to not show me all videos in my sub feed I miss things sometimes.

[meleander]

Originally posted by Quintem:

Originally posted by meleander:

Hera talks about Arena: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gXI4XGMPzQ

You can learn fast castle and castle drop :D

1. I'm bad at it because I feel like it's the perfect map for bad players. Not the kind of bad players that are low ELO but the ones that rely on cheesy strategies and gimmicks to win and I can't scout whatever BS they've got planned. It frustrates me, which makes me play worse.

2. I'm not doing castle drops on people. Because of the reasons above.

Thanks for the video though I am subbed to Hera but because YouTube likes to not show me all videos in my sub feed I miss things sometimes.

You're welcome :)

Still, if you win, you're better, and if you lose, you're worse. That's the truth. Someone could say, that they don't play Arabia because of all the cheese like archer or scout rush. And that would be the same kind of argument you're putting here. You either are a good player and you are able to put up a fight, or you're a 1-dimensional player who knows a single strategy and isn't able to adapt. From what you're saying is, you like to play some strategies, and have trouble adapting they don't work, which is ok, I myself also am better at some, and worse at some.

[Ducks on Fire]

Are you upgrading your skirms armor and making sure you have numbers? A lot of times people don't realize that skirms need armor to be effective as well as the fact that you need numbers to counter. If your opponent has like 10-15 handcannons and you are only sending in partially upgraded skirms in groups of 4-5 then of course they are going to get destroyed.

Originally posted by Quintem:

Originally posted by meleander:

Hera talks about Arena: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gXI4XGMPzQ

You can learn fast castle and castle drop :D

1. I'm bad at it because I feel like it's the perfect map for bad players. Not the kind of bad players that are low ELO but the ones that rely on cheesy strategies and gimmicks to win and I can't scout whatever BS they've got planned. It frustrates me, which makes me play worse.

2. I'm not doing castle drops on people. Because of the reasons above.

Thanks for the video though I am subbed to Hera but because YouTube likes to not show me all videos in my sub feed I miss things sometimes.

Castle drops aren't gimmick strategies though. You can fight off castle drops or even prevent them by being able to recognize when someone might go for one and knowing what to do when someone does it. You aren't going to get better if you don't learn to accept that other strategies are legitimate and you just need to learn how to play against them. I used to hate castle drops, but then I learned to be able to counter them more effectively.

[Quintem]

Originally posted by Ducks on Fire:

Castle drops aren't gimmick strategies though. You can fight off castle drops or even prevent them by being able to recognize when someone might go for one and knowing what to do when someone does it. You aren't going to get better if you don't learn to accept that other strategies are legitimate and you just need to learn how to play against them. I used to hate castle drops, but then I learned to be able to counter them more effectively.

Alright, let me just read the mind of my opponent and see what strategy they're doing.

Castle drops are gimmicky and a legitimate strategy and I don't have to like it as a strategy.

[meleander]

Originally posted by Quintem:

Originally posted by Ducks on Fire:

Castle drops aren't gimmick strategies though. You can fight off castle drops or even prevent them by being able to recognize when someone might go for one and knowing what to do when someone does it. You aren't going to get better if you don't learn to accept that other strategies are legitimate and you just need to learn how to play against them. I used to hate castle drops, but then I learned to be able to counter them more effectively.

Alright, let me just read the mind of my opponent and see what strategy they're doing.

Castle drops are gimmicky and a legitimate strategy and I don't have to like it as a strategy.

Ok, so the first few things - you can castle drop at Arabia too.

If you don't have a presence outside of the walls, a small army, etc, then yeah, mind reading is all you can do. But if you have scouts, etc, some pikes, etc, then you will be able to counter them very easily.

When I castle drop, I always prepare. First, I need to scout the region, then I need to have my scout there - that's a first sign. Second sign is, that I went castle really really fast. Then the third - you don't see a lot of building or presence outside of the walls, and my military presence is focused near your wall. Fourth, there are vills coming forward :O