Demolition Ship Near A Dock

[tiberiansun371alexw]

I know using Demolition Ships to destroy docks are not very efficient. If I have a War Galley fleet nearby, where should I position the demolition ship around docks? If it is around my dock, I want to be able to keep the war galleys in reasonable proxminity to my dock while i build up a navy. One option if fire ships show up is just to run.

I don't want to be forced to micromanage my war galleys running away if 3-10 fire ships show up. Ideally, I want to cripple the fire ship fleet if it shows up near my own docks before I reach a critical mass of war galleys. Building multiple towers near the cost is a lot of villager time and unupgraded watch towers go down surprisingly fast to fire ships.

If my fleet is near an enemy dock, I defeated the enemy navy, and I'm shooting buildings, the demo ship is going to be idle. I just want to blow up a fire ship and damage the dock at the same time if one is built. Blowing up on the fire ship without hitting other ship sor the dock feels like a waste. Hitting only the dock almost seems like a waste. Blowing up on the fire ship, which makes it weak enough for the war galleys to do their thing, and damaging the dock at the same time, seems good enough. But I don't know where to position the demolition ship to make sure I hit both when the ship spawns.

[James3157]

Demolition ships at least in my personal opinion I think should be used mainly for taking out enemy docks instead of enemy fireships. Now mainly does not necessarily mean "only", but I think that it also depends on how many docks your enemy has as well. The more docks your enemy has the more ships that can be spammed as well where demolition ships might be needed more for taking out docks than fireships. Reason why you should especially on hard (gold) difficulty and three sword difficulty campaigns (including even on standard difficulty) have at least three or more docks built if you plan on actually using any docks for combat and not only just one so that way you can produce multiple ships at a time.

Also, cannon galleons are better against docks than fireships and galleys; although, they are expensive and need to be kept alive if possible. I also disagree that fireships are not useful for players and this is especially true for the Byzantines (fire ship bonus) and Aztecs (war galley but no galleon and do have fast fire ship from Imperial Age which is rare for a civilization to not have galleon from Imperial Age, but Aztecs are one of the few exceptions to this) that seem to work best for taking out galleys and transport ships. However, some civilizations do not have fast fireship from Imperial Age and playing as Saracens especially might find it more useful using galleons from the Imperial Age as opposed to using fireships from the Imperial Age especially with that galley bonus. Demolition ships I think are the least useful from the Imperial Age, but only if the heavy demolition ship upgrade is not available. While this may not answer your question entirely I hope it helps at least partially.

[BirbNotBird]

To be fair, I used Demo Ships against docks and building a lot than against galley.

It did gone to a point I need to mass it just like war galleys to take enemy production building.

In castle about 6 is enough to send one dock forever enough, 8 depends on ages and bonuses.

[FloosWorld]

The counter triangle for naval is this:

Galley → Demo → Fire Ship → Galley

So at best, you should make more galleys and keep the demos for enemy fire ships

[tiberiansun371alexw]

Originally posted by James3157:

Demolition ships at least in my personal opinion I think should be used mainly for taking out enemy docks instead of enemy fireships.

Wait, if Demo ships are meant for taking out docks, how am I supposed to counter fire ships? Also, if a dock is producing a fire ship, wouldn't it be better to explode on it once it finishes AND hit the dock instead of exploding on the dock before it spawns?

[James3157]

Originally posted by tiberiansun371alexw:

Wait, if Demo ships are meant for taking out docks, how am I supposed to counter fire ships? Also, if a dock is producing a fire ship, wouldn't it be better to explode on it once it finishes AND hit the dock instead of exploding on the dock before it spawns?

As I mentioned previously you should also build three or more docks for producing naval units as well so that way you can produce ships more quickly for spamming on enemy docks. I also mentioned you could also produce fireships and cannon galleons as well rather than ignore by only just using galleys and demolition ships. Fireships for example work best against any ship (including against other fireships as well), except for demolition ships depending on which civilization you are specifically playing as and what they have available for naval units. Cannon galleons (although not every civilization has them or dromons which are similar to cannon galleons, but most civilizations do not have dromons) are also good against docks if you use cannon galleons for using against docks instead of demolition ships where the demolition ships could instead focus on the fireships, but as I mentioned previously the cannon galleons also need to be protected at the same time especially from fireships and demolition ships. Also, why waste time waiting for a fireship coming out with the demolition ship if the enemy dock randomly produces something other than a fireship?

[Ducks on Fire]

Originally posted by tiberiansun371alexw:

Originally posted by James3157:

Demolition ships at least in my personal opinion I think should be used mainly for taking out enemy docks instead of enemy fireships.

Wait, if Demo ships are meant for taking out docks, how am I supposed to counter fire ships? Also, if a dock is producing a fire ship, wouldn't it be better to explode on it once it finishes AND hit the dock instead of exploding on the dock before it spawns?

They aren't meant for taking out docks. As you said in your OP it is very inefficient to use demo ships like that. The resources spent on a one time use ship could have instead been used to make galleys which can kill multiple docks and ships. Demo ships are for killing groups of ships tightly packed together. Sure it may work on the AI but the AI isn't really that good and a lot of tactics and strategies work on the AI that won't work at all against a somewhat competent online player. I assume you are talking about games against other players

Demos are a counter to fire ships. Honestly I know you don't want to micro, but it's really all you can do if you are caught without the forces to fight. Try to micro and lead the fires away and have your docks gather point set inside so the ships garrison. That way you can mass ships fairly safely. If they leave only a few to try and kill your docks then it'll take a while and will be easy to kill them. If they leave the majority of ships to kill your docks then you can easily micro and kill the ones going after your galleys and then come back and deal with the rest. And building a few towers is a good idea. They don't need to be close enough to the shore to be hit by the fires, they just need to be near enough to your docks to discourage them from moving in.

It sounds like you are being too passive in general. You shouldn't just idle your ships near your dock while you wait to build up a fleet. Go out and attack with what you have. If the enemy turns out to have more ships then you can retreat, but hitting the enemy forces them to be react and you may end up killing their ships one at a time rather than having to face a fleet. If your enemy has 10 fire ships already then that means you basically already gave them water control.

Don't worry about trying to hit a dock with a demo. Just try and hit as many ships as you can with each one. Even if you only weaken some of the ships it helps your galleys take them down. Once the mass off ships is gone you can focus on the docks. It'll take time for them to mass up a fleet large enough to be a real threat again and if they choose to attack you piecemeal then let them.

[tiberiansun371alexw]

Originally posted by Ducks on Fire:

It sounds like you are being too passive in general. You shouldn't just idle your ships near your dock while you wait to build up a fleet. Go out and attack with what you have.

That's a good idea before I even know their fleet composition?

[Ducks on Fire]

Originally posted by tiberiansun371alexw:

Originally posted by Ducks on Fire:

It sounds like you are being too passive in general. You shouldn't just idle your ships near your dock while you wait to build up a fleet. Go out and attack with what you have.

That's a good idea before I even know their fleet composition?

Yes. I mean, do you know what they're going for while you are massing your navy anyway? How will you even know what they are going for if you don't move out? They can only go galley or fire ship. Fire ships are pretty bad at water control since a large number of galleys can out micro them and buy enough time for a player to make a few demos to help out.

If you send out your galleys and they are making fire ships then you can easily draw them away will you make more galleys. They'll have to spend time chasing your ships around while your docks are left alone. It does require micro, but that's the nature of the game in general and especially so on water. And this way if you do see they are going fires then you can make some demos if you need. And if they are going galley maybe you can pick off a few before they mass up.

[James3157]

Cannon galleons being better against docks than demolition ships is debatable, because they are expensive and you have to protect them as well. Galleys, fireships, and there upgraded units are also not the best against docks. You can try to take docks out with only just galleys/fireships instead of demolition ships/cannon galleons, but it will take longer as well; although, mass producing these ships from docks do help as well in making it faster to take out enemy docks. Also, as mentioned previously do not allow your demolition ships to remain idle. Make at least a few of them (depending on how many demolition ships you have currently) go after a dock if there are not any fireships nearby. They could also go after enemy cannon galleons, transport ships, and/or galleons if there are no enemy fireships nearby, but when going against upgraded galleys obviously they might be harder to take out with demolition ships.

[Ducks on Fire]

Originally posted by James3157:

Cannon galleons being better against docks than demolition ships is debatable, because they are expensive and you have to protect them as well. Galleys, fireships, and there upgraded units are not the best against docks.

So what if you have to protect them? Demos can only be used once and then you have to make more. You spend more resources in demo ships to destroy a dock then a single dock costs, and people can have 8,9,10+ docks to destroy. And what happens if there is a castle near the docks? Cannon galleys can destroy the dock from range. The demos will likely just die.

If you are early enough in the game that you don't have enough galleys to destroy a dock then you are early enough in the game that you should not be wasting resources on suicide units to kill a building that can easily be replaced for far less than the cost to destroy it.

I'm pretty sure OP is talking about playing games against other players, where as you seem to be coming from the perspective of playing against the AI or the campaigns and there is a world of difference. Demos are anti-ship units, and even then they are only cost effective if you can hit multiple ships. Otherwise you are better off using the resources for making other ships.

[BirbNotBird]

To be fair, my experience in naval is just mass galleys because bunch of microed galley can pretty much wreck fire + demo ship combo.

Those two ships feel really redundant to use unless you are limited in resources/ doing a quick raid to disturb sea eco.

[tiberiansun371alexw]

Microing galleys can be fun, but when you have like... 4 or less it takes just about forever to kill anything.

[BirbNotBird]

Yea that's why demos and fireships exist. It's meant to be punishing when you not mass enough galleys.

[tiberiansun371alexw]

Well I was thinking if there was a way to get a surprise on anyone trying to send fire ships. So if they send war galleys to meet my war galleys near my docks, that's fine. And if they send 10 fire ships... surprise 3 demolition ships cripple their fleet to the point the war galleys can beat the surviving fire ships using patrol. Or that's the idea. I only pulled it off 3 times the rest of the time they got in range of a war galley before I could even detonate.