Which cheese strat is most likely to succeed?

[Yoda Nobunaga]

An example of a cheese strat would be spamming TCs and rushing with Spanish villagers with supremacy. Not an ordinary way to fight and very much a troll or a meme.

This is just meant to be a fun chat to discuss cheese that worked, there's not gonna be a ranking or anything.

[IEatCats]

Originally posted by meleander:

Originally posted by IEatCats:

Depnding on the skill of the player random house/palisade walls may be a huge waste of resources. Usually the douche will be placed near your berries to deny food, stopping your villager production and force you to build farms elsewhere

It is recommended to scout alternative TC locations, preferably near gold and wood so you can make archers to harass. Stone is a bonus, in case the Persian player starts to tower you can counter with your own towers. Do not repair your TC (unless its aging up), use your superior working no of villagers to gather resources, rebuild your TC and age up to Feudal (if you have not) to make archers. Build farms so you have food for villagers and if need be, add scouts later to complement your archers in harassing the Persian player's eco

When you have the resources, you can advance to castle and add more military to contain their eco

Deny their food sources and keep harassing villagers

Example from a pro player
T90offical: TheViper vs Persian Douche strategy

What Vivi it so not a cheese, it's a rush - what I mean is this is a strategy with a fallback, all he did was to block bushes :D this is a very hard to do the way he did it.

From you

Originally posted by meleander:

I wouldn't say it's cheese because cheese strats are usually being used by bad players

Most low level players do not know how to or react wrongly when being douched (trying to duel the TC, repairing, vil fight etc), and this strat is not very common higher up because experieneced players know how to react to it

[Quarantined_villager]

The Malay Elephant rush experience

[meleander]

Originally posted by IEatCats:

Originally posted by meleander:

What Vivi it so not a cheese, it's a rush - what I mean is this is a strategy with a fallback, all he did was to block bushes :D this is a very hard to do the way he did it.

From you

Originally posted by meleander:

I wouldn't say it's cheese because cheese strats are usually being used by bad players

Most low level players do not know how to or react wrongly when being douched (trying to duel the TC, repairing, vil fight etc), and this strat is not very common higher up because experieneced players know how to react to it

Ok, lets clarify. I use those deinitions for cheese and rush:

1. Cheese - a broader term for a lot of different types of non-standard play that will lose you the game if it doesn't succeed, because there is no follow-up and the strategy is all-in.
   
   
2. Rush - any fast aggression but doesn't necessarily have to be all-in.

In that definition, what Vivi did is not cheesing, as he had a fallback strategy. If what he did was cheese then the moment he wasn't able to defeat Viper, he would lose, but after the initial aggression, he continued to push. That was a rush - he wasn't all in, he still had his eco, and he continued to play and put pressure for a long time. Also, the whole idea was to break Vipers eco, and from that point make it so Viper is slowed down and he can boom and overwhelm Viper.

[IEatCats]

Originally posted by meleander:

Originally posted by IEatCats:

From you


Most low level players do not know how to or react wrongly when being douched (trying to duel the TC, repairing, vil fight etc), and this strat is not very common higher up because experieneced players know how to react to it

Ok, lets clarify. I use those deinitions for cheese and rush:

1. Cheese - a broader term for a lot of different types of non-standard play that will lose you the game if it doesn't succeed, because there is no follow-up and the strategy is all-in.
   
   
2. Rush - any fast aggression but doesn't necessarily have to be all-in.

In that definition, what Vivi did is not cheesing, as he had a fallback strategy. If what he did was cheese then the moment he wasn't able to defeat Viper, he would lose, but after the initial aggression, he continued to push. That was a rush - he wasn't all in, he still had his eco, and he continued to play and put pressure for a long time. Also, the whole idea was to break Vipers eco, and from that point make it so Viper is slowed down and he can boom and overwhelm Viper.

Rubenstock is the main user of this strat, you can find some of his games (including one in a tournament) where the strat is performed better

Also, again, from you

Originally posted by meleander:

Cheese - a broader term for a lot of different types of non-standard play that will lose you the game if it doesn't succeed, because there is no follow-up and the strategy is all-in.

Persian douche sacrifices all food eco to build a TC in the enemy base, if the opponent reacts poorly they will lose the game as you build a better eco using the stolen resources and protection of your newly built TC. The same can be said for the Persian player when the opponent reacts accordingly and starts to gain a huge eco lead while the Persian player spends extended time in Dark/Feudal

What the game shows is his eco is just gathering wood and no food

[Percussigant]

One that got me to about 1200 elo a few years ago was to play Malians on Arena. You make a whole bunch of longswords, a siege tower, and you dump them inside your opponent's base. The malian pierce resistance bonus means you don't really care about TC fire. From there you just keep spamming longswords until the opponent taps out.

Don't expect to beat good players with this, though. Also prepare to get insulted a lot, because for some reason this cheese annoys people more than having to play against portuguese organ guns every game.


Something else you might want to try is to play Vietnamese (on Arabia or another open map) and sell a vill forward early to wall off your opponent's resources, kill their boar & deer, etc. Again, probably not the best way to play, but maybe you'll find it fun.

[meleander]

Originally posted by IEatCats:

Originally posted by meleander:

Ok, lets clarify. I use those deinitions for cheese and rush:

1. Cheese - a broader term for a lot of different types of non-standard play that will lose you the game if it doesn't succeed, because there is no follow-up and the strategy is all-in.
   
   
2. Rush - any fast aggression but doesn't necessarily have to be all-in.

In that definition, what Vivi did is not cheesing, as he had a fallback strategy. If what he did was cheese then the moment he wasn't able to defeat Viper, he would lose, but after the initial aggression, he continued to push. That was a rush - he wasn't all in, he still had his eco, and he continued to play and put pressure for a long time. Also, the whole idea was to break Vipers eco, and from that point make it so Viper is slowed down and he can boom and overwhelm Viper.

Rubenstock is the main user of this strat, you can find some of his games (including one in a tournament) where the strat is performed better

Also, again, from you

Originally posted by meleander:

Cheese - a broader term for a lot of different types of non-standard play that will lose you the game if it doesn't succeed, because there is no follow-up and the strategy is all-in.

Persian douche sacrifices all food eco to build a TC in the enemy base, if the opponent reacts poorly they will lose the game as you build a better eco using the stolen resources and protection of your newly built TC. The same can be said for the Persian player when the opponent reacts accordingly and starts to gain a huge eco lead while the Persian player spends extended time in Dark/Feudal

What the game shows is his eco is just gathering wood and no food

LOL. No words here. Vivi had both food and wood eco. At the start it was actually Viper having food problems, Vivi was pumping vills constantly, up to 39, which means he had a ton of eco (for simple math to build 20 vills: 20x50=1000).

You can cheese with this strategy, or you can rush with this strategy. Vivi didn't cheese, he rushed. Watch the video again and see that T90 is saying that Vivi is producing vills, while Viper can't, because Vivi has access to food and Viper doesn't.

[IEatCats]

Originally posted by meleander:

You can cheese with this strategy, or you can rush with this strategy. Vivi didn't cheese, he rushed.

Persian douche is a cheese, here is the Starcraft definition

Cheese- A strategy or tactic that relies entirely on surprise, niche, or matchup-specific weaknesses involving timings, lack of specific units, and or defenses. This reliance is so heavy a player will ignore any economic progress in exchange for an attack.

Cheese relies so much on this attack that if the player fails to inflict crippling damage or win the game outright, they will be economically behind to a large degree. At this point, the rest of the game should become an exercise in futility.

New players will definitely not expect it like the Spanish Inquisition, even for pro players it is usually a surprise. Hence why random house/palisade walls are not good counters

Originally posted by meleander:

Watch the video again and see that T90 is saying that Vivi is producing vills, while Viper can't, because Vivi has access to food and Viper doesn't.

I stand corrected, I still stand by the notion that the douche is to deny you food (hence why don't repair, don't vil fight, find new TC location ASAP, age up and counter) and requires a lot of food eco sacrificed

That amount of villagers on berries only without the farms are not going to make up for the large amount of idle time for the villagers sitting in the TC until much later

[True Beard]

I suppose an argument for the Goths Sling Strategy being cheese, or at minimum fitting this discussion, is because it’s now considered a troll or a meme. It’s become infamous.

It’s banned in all the tournaments I’ve witnessed, mostly slinging is banned in general. Pros and organizers have deemed it not a fundamental way the game should be played.

On a side note: When pros, or really good players, pull off a cheese strategy it is highly entertaining. Like watching Ganji’s siege/monk pushes on T90’s last Titan’s League. Especially his game verse Capoch, where instead of saying the usual “gg” Capoch said something like “good joke.”

[meleander]

Originally posted by Chipper Monk:

I suppose an argument for the Goths Sling Strategy being cheese, or at minimum fitting this discussion, is because it’s now considered a troll or a meme. It’s become infamous.

It’s banned in all the tournaments I’ve witnessed, mostly slinging is banned in general. Pros and organizers have deemed it not a fundamental way the game should be played.

On a side note: When pros, or really good players, pull off a cheese strategy it is highly entertaining. Like watching Ganji’s siege/monk pushes on T90’s last Titan’s League. Especially his game verse Capoch, where instead of saying the usual “gg” Capoch said something like “good joke.”

True, but the thing is, when pros do it, it stopped being a cheese strategy, it becomes a very aggressive push. Most of the cheeses are do or die, but the way pros do them, it's not to win the game using the strat, but simply to take away someone resources and then outmatch them. It's the same as archer or cav rush.

[meleander]

Originally posted by IEatCats:

Originally posted by meleander:

You can cheese with this strategy, or you can rush with this strategy. Vivi didn't cheese, he rushed.

Persian douche is a cheese, here is the Starcraft definition

Cheese- A strategy or tactic that relies entirely on surprise, niche, or matchup-specific weaknesses involving timings, lack of specific units, and or defenses. This reliance is so heavy a player will ignore any economic progress in exchange for an attack.

Cheese relies so much on this attack that if the player fails to inflict crippling damage or win the game outright, they will be economically behind to a large degree. At this point, the rest of the game should become an exercise in futility.

New players will definitely not expect it like the Spanish Inquisition, even for pro players it is usually a surprise. Hence why random house/palisade walls are not good counters

Originally posted by meleander:

Watch the video again and see that T90 is saying that Vivi is producing vills, while Viper can't, because Vivi has access to food and Viper doesn't.

I stand corrected, I still stand by the notion that the douche is to deny you food (hence why don't repair, don't vil fight, find new TC location ASAP, age up and counter) and requires a lot of food eco sacrificed

That amount of villagers on berries only without the farms are not going to make up for the large amount of idle time for the villagers sitting in the TC until much later

Yeah, but every push means you can't focus on usual stuff. If you're pushing with archers, you need to move your vills from food to gold. But if your archers lose the fight, you can still recover. Same was in this game, his push took away Viper's food, and he was still making more food then Viper, which is the expected outcome.

[Boshiken]

There are always 2 Strategies:
Lean back with 4 Castles
or go for the fast Kill like Ornlu the Booming Wolf.
However Orn the Lu dies when it comes to endless AI units.

[IEatCats]

Originally posted by meleander:

Yeah, but every push means you can't focus on usual stuff.

This is RTS and small multi tasking is required especially in AOE2

Originally posted by meleander:

If you're pushing with archers, you need to move your vills from food to gold. But if your archers lose the fight, you can still recover.

You have no TC, if the map has no fishing eco or other huntables you need to make a mill with farms. Might as well let the villagers do work, make archers to harass enemy eco. TheViper actually successfully pushes Vivi off this food

Originally posted by meleander:

Same was in this game, his push took away Viper's food, and he was still making more food then Viper, which is the expected outcome.

The eco 'damage' was not enough

Hence this is a cheese:
- Unexperienced players are not going to expect this (far faster than Lithuanian Dark Age militia rush)
- Almost unscoutable (you are busy scouting your area) and relying on surprise
- Persian player sacrifices large eco (10+ villagers with idle time)
- Persian player eco stagnates while the opponent villagers can relocate and contribute to eco as your TC is being taken down

[meleander]

Originally posted by IEatCats:

Originally posted by meleander:

Yeah, but every push means you can't focus on usual stuff.

This is RTS and small multi tasking is required especially in AOE2

Originally posted by meleander:

If you're pushing with archers, you need to move your vills from food to gold. But if your archers lose the fight, you can still recover.

You have no TC, if the map has no fishing eco or other huntables you need to make a mill with farms. Might as well let the villagers do work, make archers to harass enemy eco. TheViper actually successfully pushes Vivi off this food

Originally posted by meleander:

Same was in this game, his push took away Viper's food, and he was still making more food then Viper, which is the expected outcome.

The eco 'damage' was not enough

Hence this is a cheese:
- Unexperienced players are not going to expect this (far faster than Lithuanian Dark Age militia rush)
- Almost unscoutable (you are busy scouting your area) and relying on surprise
- Persian player sacrifices large eco (10+ villagers with idle time)
- Persian player eco stagnates while the opponent villagers can relocate and contribute to eco as your TC is being taken down

Viper almost lost. T90 said it himself, that he thinks this is a valid strategy, if properly executed and it was a really close game.

Persian eco doesn't stagnate, and having twice the number of vills is the proof of that.