Infantry in this game is kinda weak ?

[Enjoyer]

My favourite type of characets/units in games always was slow moving strong tanky units so when i started playing the game i hoped to find some civ that would fit that cryteria but in this game that seems not not be a case as slow infantry is complete a** with many reasons being for that

They are bad at killing villagers and their stats are too low to compensate for it
The meta in this game is crossbowmen / knights which are gods at raiding and killing villagers/stoping production which is the winning con and most effective way to end the game, thats why you see those 2 in pro/ranked games non stop with cav civs holding the best win rates /stats in the game.
Infantry is way too slow/dont have range for that so they get some funny bonus against buildings but destroying building is worth nothing compared to the value you get from killing villagers that can just run away from inf with wheelbarrow techs buildings are cheap and easily replaceable and infantry is not even good at destroying buildings that would be worth it (castles) cuz of their low low pierce armor they just get rekt when they get in range
the only use where that slow ass infantry may come in handy is in early feudal age rushes that you can rarely see cuz at this point the resources gathered are not in that big of a numbers .

literally 80 % of game units counter infantry including other infantry
yes the only use for slow infantry in this game to counter other infantry
they just simply have way more hard counters than archers or horse units and their counters are way more punishing because archer or horse units which can avoid taking bad trades when abusing range/movement speed horse and crossbowmen counters are lighter and managable meanwhile everything in the game dunks on slow infantry

The fix for this would be either :upgrades to slow infantry should be cheaper as they are basically just a counter unit and you never will really commit to massing them like archers or knights because infantry doesnt work on its own you need alot of other units to back them up so you get much less value out of those upgrades that in archer/horse cases transistion of those units just cost too much

or they should get ranged armor so they actually could be decent at destroying castles which hold important positions similiar to huskarls

or you could make them faster but that would just ruin their identity :0

This post is about slow infantry if you didnt notice it yet , im not including some fast moving infantry units like berserk /some unique units or substitutes for stable units like in aztecs case that actually have some use cuz they raid and chase villagers down

[Kampfkekskrieger EXP Folk Master]

în a conflict, you dont wantt to run. you dont want to armor up, you want to decide quickly the conflict itself: so firepower is best.

so the teuton knight is best; line infantry also does most damage.

// use the other units ONLY to support this "war power" to reach the destination you wish;

and only the minimum as possible. this is jesus level. not yours.
he serves you with that; you just go where your wishes are.

[chaoticbalrog]

Hahaha, to each their own.

[Enjoyer]

Escrito originalmente por slayeerpl:

Escrito originalmente por Marco of The S.o.D.:

Looks like the one who didn't watch the videos is you. Hera produced trash units because all gold reserves were gone, so was doing his opponent. He wasn't even able to create knights and also decreased a lot onagers production but you must have missed it. Like you missed that he killed a lot of arbalests, heavy cavalry and Chu Ko Nus with Teutonic Knights in the mess. He literally held on with units (infantry and siege) that are weak against the meta combo his opponent used when they both had still resources.
And yes, he used onagers, because in AOE2 you need combos not just slow infantry only unlike Warcraft 3 or other games you play. It costs you nothing to admit you had wrong first impressions about the game. This thread had no reason to exist in the first place, you seem unable to get it. Go on with writing more insults, I'm used to it so I don't mind them.
About onagers, at one point he was losing just because he destroyed his own trebuchets with onagers to kill enemy cavalry (but I bet it was fault of Teutonic Knights only, heh; not because of a huge portion of units and buildings to control at the same time after he expanded). Well, his opponent was tough and resisted so much, then found a lack of defenses and so attacked Hera where he was more vulnerable (that's another reason why he believed he would have lost). Resources ran out for him too, so he spammed light cavalry and halberdiers against Hera and then resigned.

Viper had a huge advantage, but he stopped creating cavalry and spearmen in the Castle Age and ended up slaughtering cavaliers with Teutonic Knights.... If they are worth nothing, why would have Viper wasted all of his previous advantage taking such a high risk with the slow ass infantry which has 0% hitting possibility, is still a mystery to me... Then you say: Viper had TCs. So what? Every basic player knows that villagers must be garrisoned if they are in danger. And multiple Town Centers in the Castle/Imperial Age doesn't mean you've already won. because YouTube (T90's channel, picking a random one) is full of videos showing players resigning despite having 5-6 and more TCs scattered around the map.

And you still miss that you are totally wrong when you say that slow infantry can't be managed on a multiplayer game. Hera and TheViper showed you that it can be actually managed. But hey, they just cover them with castles, onagers or make them retreat because, unlike you, they know that charging enemy upgraded arbalests with slow infantry is suicide. Hera was playing on Steppe, which is open map like Arabia. And he still managed to get kills with Teutonic knights which must be the most useless unit in the world.

They just showed you that you are wrong when you say that it's only possible to win heavy cavalry + arbalests, they actually defeated that combo! This game has a lot of variety in terms of units and maps, but it's only about paladins and arbalests to you great expert and other people are all donkeys.

I've just played a random map against Hard AI (I was rusty, otherwise I usually play on Hardest) and they constantly retreated when I killed all of their cavalry with a combo champions + Teutonic Knights, despite they had many arbalests. Of course I've also used onagers. I have seen no hell pits. Yes, DE AI doesn't play like a real human, but still behaves different from the old game because new developers put some effort into it. There's a difference between classic from 22 years ago and Definitive because the latter was made after a solid multiplayer community has been around for years, while before Age of Kings there was AOE1 only and online gaming was just in its early days. That's why AI advances to Feudal within 10 mins and Castle within 20 mins. Old version's AI wasn't that fast at advancing and often constructed barracks during Dark Age and created militias instead of researching loom. And, again: they didn't lure any boar at all. Military units just don't retreat during a battle. Hardest AI in the old version is incredibly easy compared to Hard AI in DE.

Just love how delusional you are and how you report posts once you get proven wrong.
You jus totally ignored what pros said and their opinion you keep coming with your imaginary scenarios that you created in your head totally misreading what happened in those games even when viper and hera literally made comments and calling teutonic troll/meme
literall erictic

Hera literally telling it was teutonic KNIGHT ONLY CHALLENGE he couldnt end up /finish the game with teutonic knights only since they were too slow/useless not doing anything making him lose the game had to change his plan to win/finish the game
if he played normally he would have won the game in 10 minutes using actuall good meta units

and viper using the unit when he already pretty much won with how huge advantage he had , he just made teutonic knights since he had alot of castles and it was faster than making barracks and making halbardiers but even he himself said that it would be better/safer to go halbardiers he just had that much advantage that it didnt matter what he go he go

I guess your opinion is the valid one and pros and everyone is wrong
You the single player that has 0 clue about actuall meta and how things play out in
must be in the right \_(o_o)_/

fact is that teutonic knight and other slow infantry are kinda weak troll units that works well only in rare cases and they get worse and worse the better player you are playing against is
some people got like 5 years experience of playing online so the skill of the average player in this game is pretty high up making teutonic knight just terrible
he might have been good in the past when players worse

and if you dont believe it sorry but you are delusional
how about you give online ranked a try and get actuall perspective on the subject instead of hiding in your comfort zone of single player ? :)
if you play online against actual humans you will get idea why infantry is garbanzo in this game sorry but right now you are just to clueless
and you just proved it saying that bots actually play like humans and how you misread those games ignoring pros opinion.

Do bots castle rush castle drop under your base rush you with villagers tower rush you or do many different weird strategies ? nope
Do bots micro focus units dodge projectiles bait ,group units wait for specific moments ? NOPE
Do bots sit under castles avoid taking bad trades trades or avoid fights when they dont wan't them ? Nope they make eco and just keep sending units into hell pit
Do bots actually think and adapt to what you do? NOPE sure they can make some counter unit but thats it

i mean if you are so good that you beat hardest ai you could make teutonic knight work at higher elos but whats the point of putting extra effort in than just use other broken ass meta units
but if you play online you will soon understand that teutonic knight and other slow infantry is simply not optimal unit against anyone that has good micro and abuses the meta and you will probably just start using other units that can do many more things much better than tk and other slow infantry. rarely you get to use TK in real games

[Chrøme]

Escrito originalmente por Chrøme:

Escrito originalmente por chaoticbalrog:

That would make Teutons overpowered.

With balance restrictions ofc. Rittebruders will be slower but have more armor etc. Teutonic knights need buff to pierce armor i think

After upgrade to Ritterbruders they would be more slower but have more armor. This reskin model is fantastic and should be in faction playable.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qza7_JOZwXg

[Enjoyer]

Escrito originalmente por Chrøme:

Escrito originalmente por Chrøme:

With balance restrictions ofc. Rittebruders will be slower but have more armor etc. Teutonic knights need buff to pierce armor i think

After upgrade to Ritterbruders they would be more slower but have more armor. This reskin model is fantastic and should be in faction playable.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qza7_JOZwXg

Would be great if you could just limit it to teuton fraction paladin reskin only they already have slower paladins without the tech and with +2 melee armor
sadly if you use the reskin it changes paladin look for every fraction xD so it loses meaning

[Chrøme]

Escrito originalmente por slayeerpl:

Escrito originalmente por Chrøme:

After upgrade to Ritterbruders they would be more slower but have more armor. This reskin model is fantastic and should be in faction playable.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qza7_JOZwXg

Would be great if you could just limit it to teuton fraction paladin reskin only they already have slower paladins without the tech and with +2 melee armor
sadly if you use the reskin it changes paladin look for every fraction xD so it loses meaning

Only for teutons, for the rest it makes no sense.

[Ultimate Kempo]

Bro, Goths.

[Kampfkekskrieger EXP Folk Master]

after i have seen sparta defending against persians, i dont think numbers and numbers of folks are the solution.

Escrito originalmente por slayeerpl:

...

so wanna test against truth?
I am a master and "the solution" is not a neutral one. It is bounded back to the folk you belong to. (you actually belong to).

we dont know what a foe is about to.
its the honor of the nobelty to not touch the wounds of our foes;
lets spot the light to the selves of our being I do it for my part, but others dont.

[Heimdall313]

Another good argument is other Infantry civs too.
Vikings had Thumb Ring removed after 20+ years of having it because people used the economy bonus to spin up Arbalest death blobs and still used Knights that lacked Bloodlines or Husbandry in lieu of infantry. Castle Age Berserks were notably terrible until quite recently when they finally got an HP buff so they're not laughably inferior to Long Swordsman. Even with significant buffs to infantry and a painful nerf to Arbalests, you don't see as much infantry as you'd expect from a strong Infantry civ. Heck, even playing Aztecs I have to throttle myself on Arbs.

Escrito originalmente por Chrøme:

Escrito originalmente por Chrøme:

With balance restrictions ofc. Rittebruders will be slower but have more armor etc. Teutonic knights need buff to pierce armor i think

After upgrade to Ritterbruders they would be more slower but have more armor. This reskin model is fantastic and should be in faction playable.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qza7_JOZwXg

Oi. We already have that. Its called a Boyar. Its kinda like a Teutonic Knight, but with 130+20 HP and the speed of an Eagle Warrior for only double the gold.

Escrito originalmente por Ultimate Kempo:

Bro, Goths.

Shhh you'll ruin everything

[Flakstruk]

Formations should give infantry bonuses. I'd suggest a debuff on attack speed by calvalry when in block and archers when in staggeres formation. Letting a player with barracks infantry respond dynamically to mobility or range as it comes up.

I personally dont think infantry is actually the problem,
Cavalry is w too cheap and archers too accurate. But theyre concessions to fast gaming

[chaoticbalrog]

Escrito originalmente por Flakstruk:

I personally dont think infantry is actually the problem,
Cavalry is w too cheap and archers too accurate. But theyre concessions to fast gaming

While a lot of that seems true, a big part of archers being accurate is the Thumb Ring tech, which boosts their accuracy to 100% but not everyone gets it.

[Krosis Priest]

Escrito originalmente por Flakstruk:

I personally dont think infantry is actually the problem,
Cavalry is w too cheap and archers too accurate. But theyre concessions to fast gaming

That's partially true, but I think the main issue is the massive HP disproportion between infantry and cavalry. The heaviest infantry in game has HP on par or barely above light cavalry, basic knights have nearly twice the HP and more armor than champions (who are probably supposed to represent a few extra centuries of heavy armor and weapon development), and paladins are just lol. And then pikemen and halberdiers, who were usually tanks on legs in particular, are basically fragile archer-like glass cannons who can annihilate cavalry but die when coughed at, and it would be more interesting if the attack bonus was slightly weaker but they weren't so fragile and utterly useless against everything else.

I'd honestly love if all non-fast infantry got an HP/armor buff across the board and all cavalry got a slight HP nerf, it would open up so many more strategic options and make the game less rock-paper-scissors. But since that would go against fAsT-pAcEd gAmEpLaY, I'm not holding my breath, unfortunately.

[123]

Escrito originalmente por Moose5122:

Have you tried Teutons and used Teutonic Knights? If not i think you will enjoy them, make sure to get squires from barracks for extra movement and your blacksmith upgrades

you funny boy

best unit for teutonic is their tanky af paladins

The only use for infantary is in post imp no gold trash wars where their top champions melt halbs (only because halbs shred paladins)

[123]

Escrito originalmente por Ultimate Kempo:

Bro, Goths.

Goths only have 1 gameplan

Surviving to imp with a decent economy and zerg the opponent with infantary and trebs for support

[Chrøme]

Escrito originalmente por Heimdall313:

Another good argument is other Infantry civs too.
Vikings had Thumb Ring removed after 20+ years of having it because people used the economy bonus to spin up Arbalest death blobs and still used Knights that lacked Bloodlines or Husbandry in lieu of infantry. Castle Age Berserks were notably terrible until quite recently when they finally got an HP buff so they're not laughably inferior to Long Swordsman. Even with significant buffs to infantry and a painful nerf to Arbalests, you don't see as much infantry as you'd expect from a strong Infantry civ. Heck, even playing Aztecs I have to throttle myself on Arbs.

Escrito originalmente por Chrøme:

After upgrade to Ritterbruders they would be more slower but have more armor. This reskin model is fantastic and should be in faction playable.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qza7_JOZwXg

Oi. We already have that. Its called a Boyar. Its kinda like a Teutonic Knight, but with 130+20 HP and the speed of an Eagle Warrior for only double the gold.

Escrito originalmente por Ultimate Kempo:

Bro, Goths.

Shhh you'll ruin everything

Something similar but better armored and more expensive.