How do you counter goth ?

[gDance]

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[Lord_Patito]

Depending on the civ. The ussual is avoid them to boom. Try to attack earlier and deny them a castle.

If you fail, then, you should usually go for champion or hand cannonner, altough some civs have infantry killers (aztecs Jaguars, Teutons Teytonic Knights, incas Slingers, or Byzantines cataphracts)

[jonoliveira12]

Go for counter to Infantry. Remember that the Goths lack the final Armour upgrades, so your Champions will beat their Campions 1 on 1.
Hand Cannoneers and Paladins/Battle Elephants are also good, but avoid the mass Halbs they always have.
A few skilled Onager shots can also break a Goth push really fast.

[Cacomistle]

A few things.

First of all, goths have almost effectively no bonus before they get a castle down. Well I guess if you go for a lot of knights they could flood spears, but that's about it. Militia line is too slow, and they need a castle to get huskarls, and they've got no eco bonus.

So what should happen is either you should be able to significantly outboom them, or you should be able to deal a lot of damage in feudal/castle age.

Now lets say it makes it to late game and you haven't managed to secure any advantage before imperial. Now goths become a real civ, that's not just easy to counter. But you have options.

The answer depends on your civ, but if your civ gets champion too its pretty common that champion+ranged unit will trade fine with them. If they build huskarls, champions just beat them. And if they match with their own champions, they don't get the last armor upgrade so they just kind of die to ranged fire. Goths do ofc get hand cannoneers, but there's generally ways to snipe those.

Usually whatever late game options your civ has (obviously prioritizing anti infantry) will do ok if you're playing a high tier civ. Like champ+arb or champ+chokonu on Britons/Chinese, Jaguars with skirms to kill hand cannons on Aztecs, persians is a bit trickier but if it goes to trash wars their halberdiers without armor will die really fast to xbow, and while you have gold cavalier/hand cannons can do fine, if you're mayans late game could be difficult but you can abuse mobility with plumed archers and they do get a +2 vs infantry so huskarls are beatable.

Obviously not an extensive list of meta civs, but enough to give the general idea. Basically, get an advantage in feudal/early castle, and if it goes to imp supplies champs and anti infantry trade well. Goths lacking supplies really harms their champion vs champion war; where it seems like they should have an advantage they sort of don't.

[jonoliveira12]

Originally posted by Cacomistle:

Goths lacking supplies really harms their champion vs champion war; where it seems like they should have an advantage they sort of don't.

Goths need a buff, in all actuality. Just no one seems to be able to agree in what should be buffed.

They are one of my favourite civs, and I have won fights with them as a surprise Cavalry Archer civ. They do not have Parthian Tactics or even Thumb Ring, so no one ever expects Goth Heavy Cav Archers in the Imperial Age, when all they built was anti-Infantry.

[Citizen_1245]

Originally posted by Cacomistle:

Goths lacking supplies really harms their champion vs champion war; where it seems like they should have an advantage they sort of don't.

What are you talking about ? Supplies makes champions 25% cheaper on food only, goths have 35% cheaper infantry on food, wood, and gold. Goths don't have supplies because they don't need it.

[jonoliveira12]

Originally posted by Citizen_1245:

Originally posted by Cacomistle:

Goths lacking supplies really harms their champion vs champion war; where it seems like they should have an advantage they sort of don't.

What are you talking about ? Supplies makes champions 25% cheaper on food only, goths have 35% cheaper infantry on food, wood, and gold. Goths don't have supplies because they don't need it.

Goth Champions lose to all other Champions out there, because they lack the Plate Armour upgrade.
With all other civs getting cheaper Champs/2HSwords, Goth Champions are easily countered by Infantry, of all things.

[Cacomistle]

Originally posted by Citizen_1245:

Originally posted by Cacomistle:

Goths lacking supplies really harms their champion vs champion war; where it seems like they should have an advantage they sort of don't.

What are you talking about ? Supplies makes champions 25% cheaper on food only, goths have 35% cheaper infantry on food, wood, and gold. Goths don't have supplies because they don't need it.

Ok let me clarify what I meant by champion war.

Champion war is not an archer civ saying "hey I'm gonna stop all archer production and only build champions now).

Champion war is the other civ going champ+X, where X is whatever their civ is good with, probably some ranged unit.

Yes obviously if you go pure champions against them, theirs are cheaper. But that's the entire bonus of Goths. I guess they get hand cannoneers and a lot of civs don't, but with their champions taking 4 damage (instead of 2) from skirmishers Goth's opponent won't feel bad about building skirms anyways.

And of course if you fight any other infantry civ, like slavs/vikings/japanese/aztecs (maybe not celts), they could all go toe to toe with goths in pure champion flood (and all have an eco bonus and strong units other than infantry).