Chakram Throwers

[LZZ]

Look, I understand the new civilization needs to be OP in order to sell the DLC, but Gurjaras have been released for quite some time already and they are making the game unfun to play.

Every time I get a Gurjara in the other team, it makes me want to quit the game, because I know there's nothing I can do.

They have super strong camels that counters cavalry. They have Shrivamsha Rider that counter archers. They have siege elephants. And the worst of them all, the Chakram Throwers.
Look, the Chakram Thrower is just wrong. It has the same range as a crossbow, runs almost as fast as a horse and it deals melee AOE damage. It doesn't matter if his infantry is "bad" when a pack of Chakram Throwers can delete anything besides longbowman. And even if you try to counter with archers, he has those damn Shrivamsha Riders, that can be trained on stables (without requiring an expensive unique tech like hurskarl and tarkan).

OK, so maybe I should just rush them and deny him the opportunity to pack Chakram Throwers, right?
But they start with a camel scout with bonus damage, so scout rushing is hard. They have lots of economy bonus, specially on food so you can't do it faster than him. And in team games, he is probably a pocket, making it almost impossible.

Can something be done about the Chakram Thrower so I don't have to stop playing?
Removing the AOE would be the right choice. But since I know this won't be done, at least reduce his range by half and make him slower (to allow countering with mangonels).

[DMg Halt]

Can something be done about the Chakram Thrower so I don't have to stop playing?

Yes.

Solution: Host your own game and make civ picking mandatory. Boot anyone that picks Gurjaras or chooses to stay Random.

There will be a 0% chance of running into Chakram Throwers now

[Ducks on Fire]

Are they really that bad? I don't think I've even encountered them at all. If I have they've clearly not been memorable.

Have you tried siege? Onagers would probably make short work of them. Aren't they kind of like a human version of a scorpion? Scorpions might do well against them too.

[LZZ]

Originally posted by Ducks on Fire:

Are they really that bad? I don't think I've even encountered them at all. If I have they've clearly not been memorable.

Have you tried siege? Onagers would probably make short work of them. Aren't they kind of like a human version of a scorpion? Scorpions might do well against them too.

They have just a little less range than a mangonel, but are way faster and they do melee damage, so they can do fast work of onagers. And remember that Shrivamsha Riders are extremely fast and resistant to arrows so they could kill onagers even if they're in the castle range.

Scorpions are also very slow, they do pierce damage and have minimum range. And they're still more expensive.

[Kasbfaäfad]

Originally posted by LZZ:

Originally posted by Ducks on Fire:

Are they really that bad? I don't think I've even encountered them at all. If I have they've clearly not been memorable.

Have you tried siege? Onagers would probably make short work of them. Aren't they kind of like a human version of a scorpion? Scorpions might do well against them too.

They have just a little less range than a mangonel, but are way faster and they do melee damage, so they can do fast work of onagers. And remember that Shrivamsha Riders are extremely fast and resistant to arrows so they could kill onagers even if they're in the castle range.

Scorpions are also very slow, they do pierce damage and have minimum range. And they're still more expensive.

Helbs and Onagers .. same stuff like against britons. Just that the annoying LBM is substituted by chakram..

But ok, nerf britons please is also a very common demand. Even by Hera etc for TGs. Britons break TGs surely as badly as gurjaras... and for 20 years now 11.

Or simply mass cav... enemy can't afford shivamsha, camels AND chakram at once

[Kyris]

I found malay is a good counter the cheap trash means you can run them out of gold also karambit's can chase down charkrams

[jonoliveira12]

Get good?

This game has WAAAAY stronger units than Chakram Throwers, and Shrivamshas are one of them.
Chakram Throwers are literally just a slightly better Gbeto, on a civ with no Knights, and poor Infantry upgrades.
If teh Gurjaras player, which is a Stables focused civ, had enough resources to throw around Infantry upgrades for his Chakrams, then he already won anyway, and would achieve similar results going for HCs or ESkirms as any other civ., since Chakrams are there to kill Spearmen line units to help the Gurj Cavalry push through.

[Ducks on Fire]

So I actually just got done playing a game where someone used them funny enough.

I don't see what you are talking about. My knights just slaughtered a mass of them. They weren't even close to being a threat.

Also the logic of "If I make this they can just make that" doesn't make sense. That is true of almost any civ in the game. "Paladin is OP because if you make halbs they can just go champs/archers" for example.

Originally posted by LZZ:

They have just a little less range than a mangonel, but are way faster and they do melee damage, so they can do fast work of onagers. And remember that Shrivamsha Riders are extremely fast and resistant to arrows so they could kill onagers even if they're in the castle range.

Scorpions are also very slow, they do pierce damage and have minimum range. And they're still more expensive.

If you have some pikes with your onagers then they should be able to protect them from the shrivamshas. All you need is a couple good hits with the onagers and the chakrams are all dead. And it should matter if you lose a lot of pikes they should be easily replaceable.

It sounds to me like the situations you find yourself in are ones were the enemy already has a massive army and ratehr than making an army that would respond to theirs you just went with whatever you wanted to make without knowing what the enemy was going for. When it turns out your army comp isn't right to take on the enemy it's just destroyed and you don't have the eco or don't think to quickly build a mass of production buildings to mass produce a counter army.

[Kyris]

mass scorpions can usually mow them down too

[LZZ]

Originally posted by jonoliveira12:

Chakram Throwers are literally just a slightly better Gbeto, on a civ with no Knights, and poor Infantry upgrades.

With just a little bit of microing, the Chakram Throwers can slay mobs of any infantry in the game, since they run so fast and do AOE melee damage. They can mow down not just Halbs and Champs, but Huskarls (low melee armor), Teutonic Knights (too slow), and probably even Samurai, Woad Raiders or Eagles. You just need to keep them close together and kite. Gbeto is fast but they don't have area of effect.
So... how exactly is their infantry weak?

Originally posted by jonoliveira12:

If teh Gurjaras player, which is a Stables focused civ, had enough resources to throw around Infantry upgrades for his Chakrams, then he already won anyway, and would achieve similar results going for HCs or ESkirms as any other civ.

You seem to forget team games there. Also, HCs and Elite Skirms do pierce single-target damage and are slow, so they can be countered by units that don't take bonus damage from camels, like the Huskarl and siege, for example. You also seem to forget that they have strong economy bonus.

Originally posted by Ducks on Fire:

I don't see what you are talking about. My knights just slaughtered a mass of them. They weren't even close to being a threat.

He had no camels? Did he micro them at all?

Originally posted by Ducks on Fire:

Also the logic of "If I make this they can just make that" doesn't make sense. That is true of almost any civ in the game. "Paladin is OP because if you make halbs they can just go champs/archers" for example.

The problem is that Gurjaras can counter everything, and extremely well. Super strong unique anti-infantry unit, super strong unique anti-archer cavalry. Super strong camels. All of those can do quick work of siege.

Originally posted by Ducks on Fire:

If you have some pikes with your onagers then they should be able to protect them from the shrivamshas. All you need is a couple good hits with the onagers and the chakrams are all dead. And it should matter if you lose a lot of pikes they should be easily replaceable.

All the Chakram Throwers needs to do is to run, hit, run and your Onagers are all dead together with your Halbs. The only way you're going to land hits with your Onagers is if he's not microing the Chakrams. They are fast.

Originally posted by Ducks on Fire:

It sounds to me like the situations you find yourself in are ones were the enemy already has a massive army and ratehr than making an army that would respond to theirs you just went with whatever you wanted to make without knowing what the enemy was going for. When it turns out your army comp isn't right to take on the enemy it's just destroyed and you don't have the eco or don't think to quickly build a mass of production buildings to mass produce a counter army.

Then please tell me what army comp is good against a civilization that excels against infantry, archers, mounted units and siege.

[Kyris]

Sams will kill them if they get even on hit on them , lithuanians are very effective with ignore pierce Armour , also if he's microing them you can hit base. Malay are very good with this , as karambits can sprint across the map

[Kasbfaäfad]

Originally posted by LZZ:

Originally posted by jonoliveira12:

Chakram Throwers are literally just a slightly better Gbeto, on a civ with no Knights, and poor Infantry upgrades.

With just a little bit of microing, the Chakram Throwers can slay mobs of any infantry in the game, since they run so fast and do AOE melee damage. They can mow down not just Halbs and Champs, but Huskarls (low melee armor), Teutonic Knights (too slow), and probably even Samurai, Woad Raiders or Eagles. You just need to keep them close together and kite. Gbeto is fast but they don't have area of effect.
So... how exactly is their infantry weak?

Originally posted by jonoliveira12:

If teh Gurjaras player, which is a Stables focused civ, had enough resources to throw around Infantry upgrades for his Chakrams, then he already won anyway, and would achieve similar results going for HCs or ESkirms as any other civ.

You seem to forget team games there. Also, HCs and Elite Skirms do pierce single-target damage and are slow, so they can be countered by units that don't take bonus damage from camels, like the Huskarl and siege, for example. You also seem to forget that they have strong economy bonus.

Originally posted by Ducks on Fire:

I don't see what you are talking about. My knights just slaughtered a mass of them. They weren't even close to being a threat.

He had no camels? Did he micro them at all?

Originally posted by Ducks on Fire:

Also the logic of "If I make this they can just make that" doesn't make sense. That is true of almost any civ in the game. "Paladin is OP because if you make halbs they can just go champs/archers" for example.

The problem is that Gurjaras can counter everything, and extremely well. Super strong unique anti-infantry unit, super strong unique anti-archer cavalry. Super strong camels. All of those can do quick work of siege.

Originally posted by Ducks on Fire:

If you have some pikes with your onagers then they should be able to protect them from the shrivamshas. All you need is a couple good hits with the onagers and the chakrams are all dead. And it should matter if you lose a lot of pikes they should be easily replaceable.

All the Chakram Throwers needs to do is to run, hit, run and your Onagers are all dead together with your Halbs. The only way you're going to land hits with your Onagers is if he's not microing the Chakrams. They are fast.

Originally posted by Ducks on Fire:

It sounds to me like the situations you find yourself in are ones were the enemy already has a massive army and ratehr than making an army that would respond to theirs you just went with whatever you wanted to make without knowing what the enemy was going for. When it turns out your army comp isn't right to take on the enemy it's just destroyed and you don't have the eco or don't think to quickly build a mass of production buildings to mass produce a counter army.

Then please tell me what army comp is good against a civilization that excels against infantry, archers, mounted units and siege.

Yeah but that's what Ducks already responded to... that is true for nearly every civ.
Saracens also have very strong mamelukes to counter skirms, infantry and cavalry and extremely strong onagers to counter all kinds of ranged units. In comparison to gurjaras you even only need 2 units to counter everything
And the same argumentation can be given for nearly every civ.

Spanish Paladins, Conqs and Helbs also counters everything.. just micro conqs or helbs vs camels, paladins or helbs vs shivamshas, paladins vs chakram throwers

[LZZ]

Originally posted by ByzaQuattroStagioni:

Yeah but that's what Ducks already responded to... that is true for nearly every civ.

No. There are civs that can counter everything, but they don't excel at countering everything.

Originally posted by ByzaQuattroStagioni:

Saracens also have very strong mamelukes to counter skirms, infantry and cavalry and extremely strong onagers to counter all kinds of ranged units.

Mameluke is a great unit but its almost 3 times as expensive as a Chakram Thrower, has a third of it's range and does not deal AOE damage, so you can overwhelm them with numbers. If your castle is being sieged by Saraceans, you can always repel the attack with a mix of infantry.

Originally posted by ByzaQuattroStagioni:

In comparison to gurjaras you even only need 2 units to counter everything

Sorry, which ones? I don't believe you can.

Originally posted by ByzaQuattroStagioni:

Spanish Paladins, Conqs and Helbs also counters everything.. just micro conqs or helbs vs camels, paladins or helbs vs shivamshas, paladins vs chakram throwers

Conquistador dies for Gurjara camels with two hits. Can't run away properly because camels are faster. They deal pierce damage, they do single-target damage, and they miss a lot. Still cost more than double the gold.

[CHI LONG QUA]

Originally posted by LZZ:

All the Chakram Throwers needs to do is to run, hit, run and your Onagers are all dead together with your Halbs. The only way you're going to land hits with your Onagers is if he's not microing the Chakrams. They are fast.

You can't hit-and-run a longer-ranged unit, and with enough onagers being attack-moved their firing will be too dispersed and irregular to dodge it all.