AOE2 is moving in the WRONG direction

[Valarante]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZhtirkOBdI

The video says it all. The current devs made a lot of great things to revive this classic but it seems to be going downhill now.
And I expect future gimmicks only to get worse.

How can you copy the Leitis' ability and introduce it as a laughable "Wootz Steel" tech?
ALL Dravidian infantry ignores armour which is beyond broken, even archers they catch up with aren't a counter anymore.

I like the new DLC a lot and pre-ordered it the first day but this is not how you balance a game.
You make other infantry useless (like Berserks) in comparison to the point that even designated counters like Samurai have no chance.
As if that wasn't broken enough, they get fully upgraded Archers as a bonus and a solid eco.

How to fix this? I would change this tech's effect completely or at the very least change it to get the Obuch's armour-lowering effect.

Stop releasing overpowered civs to push sales and show some class.

[Valarante]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQoE-a2zyb0

It's worse than I thought, they even beat fully upgraded Paladins!

I suggest changing the effect of Wootz Steel to the Obuch's armor removal or replacing it completely.

[Devang]

Didn't Coustilliers beat them? And yet look at the Coustillier's standing. They're a marginal unit for the Burgundians, edged out by the Burgundian Paladin.

Let the DLC release and get some playtime before you go around crying that the sky is falling.

[Valarante]

Publicado originalmente por Devang:

Didn't Coustilliers beat them? And yet look at the Coustillier's standing. They're a marginal unit for the Burgundians, edged out by the Burgundian Paladin.

Let the DLC release and get some playtime before you go around crying that the sky is falling.

That's a unique unit only available to a single civ.

[chaoticbalrog]

Publicado originalmente por Petschenege:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQoE-a2zyb0

It's worse than I thought, they even beat fully upgraded Paladins!

I suggest changing the effect of Wootz Steel to the Obuch's armor removal or replacing it completely.

I highly doubt that Wootz Steel will be replaced. Change its effects yes, but not replacing the tech outright. One possibility: Wootz Steel just gives a flat +5 to all bonus damage dealt by Dravidian infantry.

[Valarante]

Publicado originalmente por chaoticbalrog:

Publicado originalmente por Petschenege:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQoE-a2zyb0

It's worse than I thought, they even beat fully upgraded Paladins!

I suggest changing the effect of Wootz Steel to the Obuch's armor removal or replacing it completely.

I highly doubt that Wootz Steel will be replaced. Change its effects yes, but not replacing the tech outright. One possibility: Wootz Steel just gives a flat +5 to all bonus damage dealt by Dravidian infantry.

It's such a poorly designed tech anyway. They just took Leitis' ability and slapped it onto all Dravidian infantry.

[chaoticbalrog]

Publicado originalmente por Petschenege:

Publicado originalmente por chaoticbalrog:

I highly doubt that Wootz Steel will be replaced. Change its effects yes, but not replacing the tech outright. One possibility: Wootz Steel just gives a flat +5 to all bonus damage dealt by Dravidian infantry.

It's such a poorly designed tech anyway. They just took Leitis' ability and slapped it onto all Dravidian infantry.

I don't think of it as poorly designed, but that's just me. Hell, have you even so much as SEEN their tech tree?

[Valarante]

Publicado originalmente por chaoticbalrog:

Publicado originalmente por Petschenege:

It's such a poorly designed tech anyway. They just took Leitis' ability and slapped it onto all Dravidian infantry.

I don't think of it as poorly designed, but that's just me. Hell, have you even so much as SEEN their tech tree?

Just because they were adventurous enough to make a civ without imp cavalry, doesn't justify the existence of a unit that slays about anything it can catch.

Besides that, what even is the logic behind giving a slow unit charge attacks?
Not like this matters when all of your infantry has full upgrades and ignores armour anyway.

[chaoticbalrog]

Archers can still ruin the Urumi's day though. A base pierce armor of 0, even if armor upgrades are taken into consideration, means that just about any foot or cavalry archer mass can destroy an equal mass of Urumis. This also makes them kinda reverse Goths in that they get countered by archers. Goth Huskarls can tear through archers like wet tissue paper thanks to their high pierce armor and attack bonuses against archers, and they've been around since Age of Kings. Nobody complained about them as far as I know.

[Devang]

Publicado originalmente por Petschenege:

Publicado originalmente por Devang:

Didn't Coustilliers beat them? And yet look at the Coustillier's standing. They're a marginal unit for the Burgundians, edged out by the Burgundian Paladin.

Let the DLC release and get some playtime before you go around crying that the sky is falling.

That's a unique unit only available to a single civ.

I'm saying the Urumi are defeated by Coustilliers and yet you don't see Coustilliers running around 24x7 in every single match that's played. You're making it sound like Urumi are some sort of an insta-win button which would make the Coustilliers the super insta-win button since they trump them. So, where is this super insta-win button in actual matches? Why don't we see it more often?

You're grossly overestimating things here, especially the value of an unit's melee combat prowess. It doesn't mean much compared to durability (HP + Armour, esp Pierce Armour), speed etc. Just look at Teutonic Knights. Despite everything, they've always been a marginal (meme) unit.

[Valarante]

Publicado originalmente por Devang:

Publicado originalmente por Petschenege:

That's a unique unit only available to a single civ.

I'm saying the Urumi are defeated by Coustilliers and yet you don't see Coustilliers running around 24x7 in every single match that's played.

Your comparison simply doesn't make sense.

Because one unit (Coustillier) is good vs a single overpowered one (Urumi), while the latter easily defeats almost all infantry & cavalry.

And there are many infantry units with 0 or 1 pierce armor but not even full upgrades. The Urumi's low armour is no excuse for it destroying nearly everything in melee.

[Jouni]

Publicado originalmente por Petschenege:

Not like this matters when all of your infantry has full upgrades and ignores armour anyway.

You keep writing about armor negation like it's the main reason why Urumi swordsman performs so well. It's not. The reason why they beat almost everything in the video is that their special attack not only deals more damage but often clearly damages more than just one unit. It may be that it damages everything one tile in front of the unit. Urumi's standard attacks don't seem to be anything special.

[Devang]

By your logic:

Coustilliers > Urumi > Everything else.

Coustilliers = Super Urumi.

So if Urumi is OP and Coustillier beats it i.e. is super duper hyper OP, why aren't all AoE2 matches only Burgundians vs. Burgundian mirrors in which people train only Coustilliers and nothing else?

You're making it sound like all future matches will be Dravidians vs. Dravidians mirrors with people training nothing but Urumi, since it has absolutely no counter whatsoever. So by your logic, why isn't everything only Burgundian mirror with Coustilliers as the sole unit ever worth training right now?

[Valarante]

Publicado originalmente por Devang:

By your logic:

Coustilliers > Urumi > Everything else.

Coustilliers = Super Urumi.

Sorry but this is only your logic. Urumi have far less weaknesses as those are just Archers in open fields - which you easily counter with your fully upgradable & 25% faster-firing Skirmishers.

You didn't quite get what I wrote:

Publicado originalmente por Petschenege:

Because one unit (Coustillier) is good vs a single overpowered one (Urumi), while the latter easily defeats almost all infantry & cavalry.

[Devang]

Ok, let's try this again. Slower this time. Urumi beat all infantry and cavalry. Coustilliers beat Urumi. So as a corollary Coustilliers beat Urumi AND all other infantry and cavalry. Correct? Or are you somehow disputing this point?

Urumi > All infantry + cavalry

Coustilliers > Urumi

Therefore Coustilliers > Urumi > All the other rabble

Is this somehow not the direct implication of what you're saying? I didn't even bring the Coustillier into the discussion. It's right there in the video you shared with the community.

So if your concerns are true, that the Urumi is OP; wouldn't the unit that beats it in straight melee combat, with equal resources, even more OP than it is? I am correct that your concerns are its melee combat ability, right? Or is it something else?

[Born to Coom]

Publicado originalmente por Devang:

Ok, let's try this again. Slower this time. Urumi beat all infantry and cavalry. Coustilliers beat Urumi. So as a corollary Coustilliers beat Urumi AND all other infantry and cavalry. Correct? Or are you somehow disputing this point?

Urumi > All infantry + cavalry

Coustilliers > Urumi

Therefore Coustilliers > Urumi > All the other rabble

Is this somehow not the direct implication of what you're saying? I didn't even bring the Coustillier into the discussion. It's right there in the video you shared with the community.

So if your concerns are true, that the Urumi is OP; wouldn't the unit that beats it in straight melee combat, with equal resources, even more OP than it is? I am correct that your concerns are its melee combat ability, right? Or is it something else?

Stop trolling and actually listen to his point, you can't be this dense.

Just because Coust > Urumi.

Doesn't mean Coust > everything else.

If Coust > Urumi but loses to many other units.

But Urumi < Coust but wins vs anything else.

What do you think is the take away from this.

Just because a unit as a SINGLE unique unit counter doesn't mean that counter is good vs everything else.
Unlike urumi.