The Portuguese Caravel needs a buff imo...

[poke_ravi]

It's pretty much worthless against enemy galleons and even does poorly in 1 vs 1 combat. The scorpion projectile doesn't work like it should imo and most of the caravels get destroyed quickly before they're able to do real damage. If they had a higher attack and more health I feel like it would be used more often. Perhaps this can be compensated for with a higher cost.

[Sumo Cerdote]

Nguyên văn bởi Gorilianul:

I knew all along that he has the 3rd SS Panzer Division Totenkopf. Sometimes the Proud Boys use it as their logo. Don't know is he is a Proud Boy or an Edgy Boy. They were also known for war crimes in Poland and France. But then again, there are many artists, especially martial folk bands like Death in June which use this imagery or others of that kind, which by no means is an excuse to propagate such ideas.

The straw man fallacy again. So original. Amazing how many things someone thinks they can know about me just from a drawing on my profile. I refer to what I said in my previous comment.

[Gorilianul]

Nguyên văn bởi Sumo Cerdote:

Nguyên văn bởi Gorilianul:

I knew all along that he has the 3rd SS Panzer Division Totenkopf. Sometimes the Proud Boys use it as their logo. Don't know is he is a Proud Boy or an Edgy Boy. They were also known for war crimes in Poland and France. But then again, there are many artists, especially martial folk bands like Death in June which use this imagery or others of that kind, which by no means is an excuse to propagate such ideas.

The straw man fallacy again. So original. Amazing how many things someone thinks they can know about me just from a drawing on my profile. I refer to what I said in my previous comment.

Cmon man lets be real. What man in the right mind would use a logo of the SS and also having far right ideas and seeing leftist conspiracies everywhere, trying to put down the spanish. I wonder how white you can rate the Spanish after a couple of hundred years of muslim conquest of Spain. You won't see any lover of democracy and liberalism wearing this logo.

[Paulo Ramos]

Nguyên văn bởi jonoliveira12:

Nguyên văn bởi Sumo Cerdote:

Thanks for returning to the issue I was trying to discuss, setting aside historical hard feelings and envy against the Spanish, and setting aside using (as an "argument" against my opinion just about a "Spanish Caravel" in AoE2 !!!) that alleged "genocide" that alternative history (manufactured and propagated by "The New Left", by the way) insists on attributing to the Spanish, and only to the Spanish. If historically the Spaniards did not use the Caravela as a weapon (certainly they preferred other types of ships), I can accept your argument.

Dude, your PFP is a SS insignia and your username translates to Supreme Pig.
Ain't non taht care about you speaking about the New Left!
You are the New Left!
That the Spanish are not famous for any naval conquest, specially not ones involving Caravels, and are just famous for seal-clubbing in the New World, is an incontrvertible fact.
No amount of "muh black legend" from you, will ever change that fact. The Spanish turned out to be just like the Moors, brutal and rapacious invaders that got kicked out by the natives, centuries later.

Spanish neither need, nor should get Cravaels. All the famous Caravel Battles happened under Portugal, same with the vast majority of famous Caravels being Portuguese.

The Spanish are known for large armies, not good navies. They are also know for Galleons, which is why they have bonus for the Cannon Galleon.

The Galleon is a French invention, however. It is literal French for "Big Galley".

Do you have a source? Words meaning is not always related to the origen.

[BuchiTaton]

Nguyên văn bởi Sumo Cerdote:

Inga Clendinnen, an Australian historian, humorously comments that mourning the demise of the Aztec Empire is more or less like mourning the defeat of the Nazis in World War II. Only in the sophisticated extermination system of Nazism does Clendinnen find an accessible reference to explain the organization of thousands of periodic human sacrifices in the rituals of Tenochtitlán. The massacres of the Aztec population were carried out by tribes subjected to them who did not find rest until they were convinced that the Aztecs would not return. This happened against the express will of Hernán Cortés who, once the revenge was over, incorporated a good part of the surviving Aztecs into the new power structure. [...] The Aztec culture was a bloody totalitarianism founded on human sacrifice. The Aztecs spent much of the year hunting people from neighboring tribes to sacrifice them in festivals that lasted three months and killed between 20,000 and 30,000 people each year. The subjugated tribes of the region lived in terror waiting for the day that this monstrosity would end. And it ended, with the arrival of the Spanish, but not without the essential collaboration of many tribes. Cortes landed with about 500 men. Researchers do not agree on how many inhabitants Tenochtitlán had, and the figures range from 80,000 to 250,000. In any case, in any neighborhood of the great Aztec city there were enough people to finish off those foreigners. Cortes would never have been able to surrender to the Aztecs without the essential support of other Indian peoples such as the Tlaxcalans and the Totonacs. Powell insists that most of the conquest was a work of high diplomacy rather than war and that it was only possible by establishing alliances with the Indians.

There is a "Black Leyend" againts Spaniards but that do not mean to exagerate about Aztecs human sacrifice.

- "The majority of human remains were preserved in the western plaza and in several buildings leading off it. The Huei Tzompantli is a veritable funerary centre of gravity, preserving the bulk of the evidence. To date, the UAP team have counted some 450 skulls which, along with finds in other areas of the sacred precinct, give a total of approximately 1,000 individuals. We know we will never find the bones of all the victims of human sacrifice, given the challenges and limitations of archaeology in urban centres. Even so, thanks to these finds we can prove both the existence of human sacrifice and the fact that Spanish sources exaggerated the numbers of people sacrificed in Tenochtitlan."

Both Aztec and Spaniards (also Portuguese, English, etc.) certainly did some atrocities in name of their religious beliefs and also more worldly and pragmatic ambitions. The real "Black Legend" is the exageration on the extent of those acts.

Aztec were certainly hated by their neighboring kingdoms and republic (did you say the "tribes" of Castile and Aragon?), but it is not the first neither the last time a regional power was faced by coalitions of oppresed rivals plus a new external power.

[BuchiTaton]

Nguyên văn bởi jonoliveira12:

Except it did, plenty of them, actually.
Spain still should not get the Caravel, since it is a Portuguese DESIGNED, INVENTED and ACTUALLY USED vessel.

True, Caravel is and should stay as an unique Portuguese unit. It also need a buff in-game.

Nguyên văn bởi jonoliveira12:

Sorry Spain's naval History sucks, and all you have are 2 famous Caravels, and their fame is only as transports for a guy who was wrong about the way to India.

Agree, the last two centuries of AoE2 time range Portuguese had the best navy.

Nguyên văn bởi jonoliveira12:

Also sorry teh Ottomans bodied the Spanish navy in the Mediterranean, but the Portuguese, WITH THEIR CARAVELS, bodied teh Ottomans on the Indian Ocean, mucgh farther away from their homwland than the Spanish ever had to fight a naval battle, with much more limited numbers.

Now, this is already an exageration and factual wrong. Did you forget about the Spanish Philippines?

Nguyên văn bởi jonoliveira12:

Spain's Caravels are famed for initiating genocide. Portugal's are famed for conquest and exploration of cultures who actually could fight back.

Portugal is also famed as the top atlantic slave trader by far, also by the Bandeirantes raiding spanish missions from Venezuela to Paraguay to slave catholic natives.

[jonoliveira12]

Nguyên văn bởi BuchiTaton:

Nguyên văn bởi jonoliveira12:

Except it did, plenty of them, actually.
Spain still should not get the Caravel, since it is a Portuguese DESIGNED, INVENTED and ACTUALLY USED vessel.

True, Caravel is and should stay as an unique Portuguese unit. It also need a buff in-game.

Nguyên văn bởi jonoliveira12:

Sorry Spain's naval History sucks, and all you have are 2 famous Caravels, and their fame is only as transports for a guy who was wrong about the way to India.

Agree, the last two centuries of AoE2 time range Portuguese had the best navy.

Nguyên văn bởi jonoliveira12:

Also sorry teh Ottomans bodied the Spanish navy in the Mediterranean, but the Portuguese, WITH THEIR CARAVELS, bodied teh Ottomans on the Indian Ocean, mucgh farther away from their homwland than the Spanish ever had to fight a naval battle, with much more limited numbers.

Now, this is already an exageration and factual wrong. Did you forget about the Spanish Philippines?

Nguyên văn bởi jonoliveira12:

Spain's Caravels are famed for initiating genocide. Portugal's are famed for conquest and exploration of cultures who actually could fight back.

Portugal is also famed as the top atlantic slave trader by far, also by the Bandeirantes raiding spanish missions from Venezuela to Paraguay to slave catholic natives.

The Spanish Phillipines were not conquered after a great naval battle, against an opponent that could defend itself.
The phillipinos had canoes.

It also happened after the Middle Ages. Medieval Castille (Spain is also not Medieval, there was no Spain proper, in this timeframe) was not known for amazing naval victories, specially not ones involving expert use of Caravels.

[BuchiTaton]

Nguyên văn bởi jonoliveira12:

The Spanish Phillipines were not conquered after a great naval battle, against an opponent that could defend itself.
The phillipinos had canoes.

So pushing the goal from "had to fight a naval battle" into the more subjetive "conquered after a great naval battle".
Also did you think tribal natives were the only involved with the spanish Philippines at 16th century? Lets ignore the many muslim thalassocracies and far east pirates fighting againts the spanish in the region.

Nguyên văn bởi jonoliveira12:

It also happened after the Middle Ages. Medieval Castille (Spain is also not Medieval, there was no Spain proper, in this timeframe) was not known for amazing naval victories, specially not ones involving expert use of Caravels.

Funny enough do you want to use "Middle Ages"? So lets use the traditional date at the Fall of Constantinople, or the Discovery of America (the irony). But wait, both Da Gama and Almeida expeditions are now outside "Middle Ages"!

Again, we are talking about AoE2 the game with many campaigns and scenarios covering the 16th century even to the very end of it. Do not come now with a "Spain dont even exist" move.

Seriously, is as easy as show Portugal invented Caravels and excelled in their use to justify their status as unique, all this exagerated degradation of Spanish achievements is totally gratuitous and unnecessary.

By the way give Portuguese the line of sight bonus is a great idea, hope devs buff the civ in some ways.

[jonoliveira12]

Nguyên văn bởi BuchiTaton:

Nguyên văn bởi jonoliveira12:

The Spanish Phillipines were not conquered after a great naval battle, against an opponent that could defend itself.
The phillipinos had canoes.

So pushing the goal from "had to fight a naval battle" into the more subjetive "conquered after a great naval battle".
Also did you think tribal natives were the only involved with the spanish Philippines at 16th century? Lets ignore the many muslim thalassocracies and far east pirates fighting againts the spanish in the region.

Nguyên văn bởi jonoliveira12:

It also happened after the Middle Ages. Medieval Castille (Spain is also not Medieval, there was no Spain proper, in this timeframe) was not known for amazing naval victories, specially not ones involving expert use of Caravels.

Funny enough do you want to use "Middle Ages"? So lets use the traditional date at the Fall of Constantinople, or the Discovery of America (the irony). But wait, both Da Gama and Almeida expeditions are now outside "Middle Ages"!

Again, we are talking about AoE2 the game with many campaigns and scenarios covering the 16th century even to the very end of it. Do not come now with a "Spain dont even exist" move.

Seriously, is as easy as show Portugal invented Caravels and excelled in their use to justify their status as unique, all this exagerated degradation of Spanish achievements is totally gratuitous and unnecessary.

By the way give Portuguese the line of sight bonus is a great idea, hope devs buff the civ in some ways.

Potugal had already defeated African navies with Caravels, by the time Constantinople fell, while the Castillians did not even know what a Caravel was.

Also, the end of the Middle Ages is still in question, since Tenoctitlan (also considered the end of the Mioddle Ages), fell in 1521, while the de Almeida expedition was in 1505.

The game actually takes the rise of the Mughals, as the end of the line, now, too.

Regardless, Between 1453 (Fall of Constantinople) and 1521 (Fall of Tenochtitlan) is the period of the End of the Middle Ages, since whole Eras do not end in a single event, usually.

And yes, you will even find academics that say the Middle Ages only really ended with the start of the 30 Years War, since it marked the beggining of the shattering of the power of the Roman Catholic Church, one of the most iconic Medieval institutions, and definitely a marking part of the period.

[BuchiTaton]

Nguyên văn bởi jonoliveira12:

Potugal had already defeated African navies with Caravels, by the time Constantinople fell, while the Castillians did not even know what a Caravel was.

And? I am saying Caravels should stay as a Portuguese unique and get a buff.

Your comments about Castillians is again complety gratuite at the point of say "did not even know what a Caravel was". They did not know how to build one but certainly would have known about the prestige of Portuguese ships being right next to them. You are again exagerating for no real reasons.

Nguyên văn bởi jonoliveira12:

Also, the end of the Middle Ages is still in question, since Tenoctitlan (also considered the end of the Mioddle Ages), fell in 1521, while the de Almeida expedition was in 1505.

The game actually takes the rise of the Mughals, as the end of the line, now, too.

Sure, there is not like we have Lepanto, Noryang, Kyoto and Bayinnaung campaign.

Nguyên văn bởi jonoliveira12:

Regardless, Between 1453 (Fall of Constantinople) and 1521 (Fall of Tenochtitlan) is the period of the End of the Middle Ages, since whole Eras do not end in a single event, usually.

And yes, you will even find academics that say the Middle Ages only really ended with the start of the 30 Years War, since it marked the beggining of the shattering of the power of the Roman Catholic Church, one of the most iconic Medieval institutions, and definitely a marking part of the period.

Exactly, but you procede to pick the ones that fit your point despite that let out the time range that is clearly covered by AoE2 scenarios and campaigns.

[Sumo Cerdote]

Nguyên văn bởi Gorilianul:

Nguyên văn bởi Sumo Cerdote:

The straw man fallacy again. So original. Amazing how many things someone thinks they can know about me just from a drawing on my profile. I refer to what I said in my previous comment.

Cmon man lets be real. What man in the right mind would use a logo of the SS and also having far right ideas and seeing leftist conspiracies everywhere, trying to put down the spanish. I wonder how white you can rate the Spanish after a couple of hundred years of muslim conquest of Spain. You won't see any lover of democracy and liberalism wearing this logo.

Cmon man lets be real. You are pretending to do an entire analysis and psychoanalysis of me based solely on a skull icon that I chose for my profile about twelve years ago searching Google for images of pirate skulls. I didn't even realize it was an SS logo when I chose it. And I'm not going to change it now because a joke psychoanalyst like you tells me. Apparently, with so little substrate you are also able to guess that I have "far right ideas". But oh wait! "a couple of hundred years of muslim conquest of Spain"? I thought the Spanish were the ones who conquered, massacred, murdered, and "seal-clubbed" Native Americans. Yes, the same ones they saved from being conquered, massacred, murdered, and "seal-clubbed" by their neighboring tribes... among other things, to eat them.

PS. As I see that as a historian you are just as good as a joke psychoanalyst, let me inform you that the Muslim invasion of Spain lasted about seven centuries, and not just two. I appeal to you not to cling now to this historical precision in order to deduce, once again, that I have "far right ideas", or that I am an "Islamophobe"...

[Kampfschwein Fjonda]

I don't care what you or others are. it is enough that you are 500% off topic.

[Heimdall313]

Honestly, Caravel are more of a support unit you put behind galleons to repel fire ships, massacre Longboats, and troll shorelines. Good on Archipelago where you have chokepoints between islands. Same reason you put Scorpions behind meatshields and fire them into chokepoints. I thinks its a fine unit tbh.

Nguyên văn bởi Gorilianul:

Cmon man lets be real. What man in the right mind would use a logo of the SS and also having far right ideas and seeing leftist conspiracies everywhere, trying to put down the spanish. I wonder how white you can rate the Spanish after a couple of hundred years of muslim conquest of Spain. You won't see any lover of democracy and liberalism wearing this logo.

That feel when people don't know the difference between invasion followed by minority occupation with minimal demographic impact (Spain or foreign occupations of China for example) and a large or complete racial or ethnic displacement, replacement, or genocide (Ancient Greek empires killed, raped, and enslaved to non-existence in much of northern Africa, Egypt, and the Seleucid territories by Arabs and Turks for example). How black is the eastern half of the African continent after millennia of Arab/Turkish slave raids and conquests, bucko?

Also the total lack of awareness of jumping to wild, prejudicial assumptions fueled by nothing more than an internet avatar and jumping straight into "how white are the spanish" deconstructionism.
You won't see any "lovers of democracy and liberalism" wear a skull and crossbones buuut you will see them cheering when civilians in a country they can't find on a map are getting burned alive and mowed down with automatic weapons for not being democratic and liberal enough. Sorry but "liberalism", "democracy", and "freedom" have murdered, starved, raped, impoverished, and displaced more innocents and civilians than any of their ideological enemies or critics ever have. You see a skull and crossbones and jump to "Spanish man not even White" - half the planet sees a gay pride flag and knows they're about to learn what a thermobaric missile is and have armed insurrectionists magically appear in their countryside with decades of poverty, death, and chaos to follow.

[Gorilianul]

Nguyên văn bởi Sumo Cerdote:

Nguyên văn bởi Gorilianul:

Cmon man lets be real. What man in the right mind would use a logo of the SS and also having far right ideas and seeing leftist conspiracies everywhere, trying to put down the spanish. I wonder how white you can rate the Spanish after a couple of hundred years of muslim conquest of Spain. You won't see any lover of democracy and liberalism wearing this logo.

Cmon man lets be real. You are pretending to do an entire analysis and psychoanalysis of me based solely on a skull icon that I chose for my profile about twelve years ago searching Google for images of pirate skulls. I didn't even realize it was an SS logo when I chose it. And I'm not going to change it now because a joke psychoanalyst like you tells me. Apparently, with so little substrate you are also able to guess that I have "far right ideas". But oh wait! "a couple of hundred years of muslim conquest of Spain"? I thought the Spanish were the ones who conquered, massacred, murdered, and "seal-clubbed" Native Americans. Yes, the same ones they saved from being conquered, massacred, murdered, and "seal-clubbed" by their neighboring tribes... among other things, to eat them.

PS. As I see that as a historian you are just as good as a joke psychoanalyst, let me inform you that the Muslim invasion of Spain lasted about seven centuries, and not just two. I appeal to you not to cling now to this historical precision in order to deduce, once again, that I have "far right ideas", or that I am an "Islamophobe"...

Lol just lol, same for the second guy.

[Sumo Cerdote]

Nguyên văn bởi Fjonda:

I don't care what you or others are. it is enough that you are 500% off topic.

Your opinion doesn't matter much to me either, but let me simply tell you that if I'm "off topic" it's simply because I answered "OFF TOPIC" responses that (among racist insults and nonsense disqualifications that were also "OFF TOPIC") intended to answer the TOPIC that I suggested about caravels in the AoE2DE. So you can tell that to the real ones who went "OFF TOPIC".

[Sumo Cerdote]

Nguyên văn bởi Gorilianul:

Nguyên văn bởi Sumo Cerdote:

Cmon man lets be real. You are pretending to do an entire analysis and psychoanalysis of me based solely on a skull icon that I chose for my profile about twelve years ago searching Google for images of pirate skulls. I didn't even realize it was an SS logo when I chose it. And I'm not going to change it now because a joke psychoanalyst like you tells me. Apparently, with so little substrate you are also able to guess that I have "far right ideas". But oh wait! "a couple of hundred years of muslim conquest of Spain"? I thought the Spanish were the ones who conquered, massacred, murdered, and "seal-clubbed" Native Americans. Yes, the same ones they saved from being conquered, massacred, murdered, and "seal-clubbed" by their neighboring tribes... among other things, to eat them.

PS. As I see that as a historian you are just as good as a joke psychoanalyst, let me inform you that the Muslim invasion of Spain lasted about seven centuries, and not just two. I appeal to you not to cling now to this historical precision in order to deduce, once again, that I have "far right ideas", or that I am an "Islamophobe"...

Lol just lol, same for the second guy.

Since you had nothing to say, it would have been better if you had said nothing.