The Portuguese Caravel needs a buff imo...

[poke_ravi]

It's pretty much worthless against enemy galleons and even does poorly in 1 vs 1 combat. The scorpion projectile doesn't work like it should imo and most of the caravels get destroyed quickly before they're able to do real damage. If they had a higher attack and more health I feel like it would be used more often. Perhaps this can be compensated for with a higher cost.

[jonoliveira12]

引用自 Sumo Cerdote：

The Spanish discovered America with three boats: two caravels and one "nao". The caravel was used by the Spanish and the Portuguese, but they was the Spanish who made History using it. The Spanish should have the caravel just like the Portuguese have it, if not with even more reason.

Wrong. Portugal was using Caravels to sink entire fleets and capture cities in Asia and Africa, long before teh Spanish used them to disembark in the Americas.

Not only did Portugal INVENT the Caravel, they actually used it against opponents who could fight back. Almost all the great battles involving Caravels, were under the Portuguese.

[Sumo Cerdote]

引用自 jonoliveira12：

引用自 Paulo Ramos：

The caravels were used by many europeans but just that the Portuguese invented it.

In the Middle Ages proper, only the Portuguese had access to Caravels.

Conventionally, the beginning of the Middle Ages is located in the year 476 with the fall of the Western Roman Empire and its end in 1492 with the discovery of America by the Kingdom of Castile, a feat that the Spaniards achieved thanks to a trip made with three ships, two of which were caravels. So it cannot be said that it is not accurate to say that "In the Middle Ages proper, only the Portuguese had access to Caravels".

[Sumo Cerdote]

引用自 jonoliveira12：

引用自 Sumo Cerdote：

The Spanish discovered America with three boats: two caravels and one "nao". The caravel was used by the Spanish and the Portuguese, but they was the Spanish who made History using it. The Spanish should have the caravel just like the Portuguese have it, if not with even more reason.

Wrong. Portugal was using Caravels to sink entire fleets and capture cities in Asia and Africa, long before teh Spanish used them to disembark in the Americas.

Not only did Portugal INVENT the Caravel, they actually used it against opponents who could fight back. Almost all the great battles involving Caravels, were under the Portuguese.

The caravel was developed by the Portuguese at the "Sagres Navigation School" in the early 15th century (which begins in 1400), and the Spanish discovered America using two of them, "La Pinta" and "La Niña"—which they are the two most famous caravels in history—, on a journey that began in August 1492, a time when the Spanish were already veteran users of caravels. So it does not seem correct to say that the Portuguese had Caravelas so "long before" the Spanish used them to "disembark" in the Americas. There is not such a long lapse of time between the use of the caravela by the Portuguese and by the Spanish.

As a possible solution I would propose that if the Portuguese have the standard caravela in the Castle Age and the elite caravela in the Imperial, the Spanish have the standard caravela in the Imperial Age, then being able to access the Elite Caravela through an upgrade that has a certain cost; as it happens with the Cannon Galleon (for the civ's that have it), which starts at Imperial and has an upgrade at that same Age. I think that would be the most reliable. But the fact that the Spanish lack the type of boat with which they achieved one of the greatest feats in history, such as the discovery of the New World, certainly does not seem very appropriate.

[Gorilianul]

引用自 Frozium：

引用自 Sumo Cerdote：

The Spanish discovered America with three boats: two caravels and one "nao". The caravel was used by the Spanish and the Portuguese, but they was the Spanish who made History using it. The Spanish should have the caravel just like the Portuguese have it, if not with even more reason.

I prefer our Flak 88 Cannon Galleons.

Those would certainly get my money unless you find a way to mount a T 34 on them. King Tiger goes BRRRRRR.

[jonoliveira12]

引用自 Sumo Cerdote：

引用自 jonoliveira12：

In the Middle Ages proper, only the Portuguese had access to Caravels.

Conventionally, the beginning of the Middle Ages is located in the year 476 with the fall of the Western Roman Empire and its end in 1492 with the discovery of America by the Kingdom of Castile, a feat that the Spaniards achieved thanks to a trip made with three ships, two of which were caravels. So it cannot be said that it is not accurate to say that "In the Middle Ages proper, only the Portuguese had access to Caravels".

Spain got it's Caravels in the late 1400s, whereas Portugal developed them in the 1450s.
Spain used them to transport to the Americas, but it was Portugal that, not only invented them, but also used them to sink entire fleets from the Mamelukes, Gujarati, Chinese, Ottomans, Malaccans and Japanese.

Native Americans did not even do Ocean Warfare, while the enemies the Portuguese were facing, with their Caravels, did.
It was Portugal that not only invented the Caravel, but made it famous, not only as a transport and exploratory vessel, but also as Europe's first deep water vessel, and the world's first gunboat.

The Caravel was made famous by the Portuguese, not the Spanish.
Giving the Caravel to the Spanish, would be the same thing as giving the Samurai to the Koreans.
The Caravel is a national symbol of Portugal, and is intrinsically portuguese, as a cultural and naval object.

It is to Portugal, what the Nest of Bees is to China, or the Jaguar Knight is to Mexico.
It is a symbol of it's military culture. Non-portuguese Caravels were achieved by imitation and plan stealing. No other country even ever made Caravels as good as Portugal's, either.

Same way you cannot claim the throne of Egypt by buying a Ramses costume, you cannot claim the Caravel by making a copy.

I am sorry Spain never had huge naval victories with it's Caravels, but Portugal did. Seal-clubbing in the New World is not what Caravels are known for, they are known for circumnavigating Africa, the world, piracy and trade on the Indian Ocean, and naval conquests in East Africa and Asia.

[Sumo Cerdote]

引用自 Frozium：

引用自 Sumo Cerdote：

The Spanish discovered America with three boats: two caravels and one "nao". The caravel was used by the Spanish and the Portuguese, but they was the Spanish who made History using it. The Spanish should have the caravel just like the Portuguese have it, if not with even more reason.

I prefer our Flak 88 Cannon Galleons.

Yes, me too. But considering that Spain invented ocean shipping, discovered America (with three ships of which two were caravels), and was traditionally known for its naval might, its naval bonuses are a bit lacking, or somewhat unrepresentative, in Age of Empires 2. The Cannon Galleon benefit from ballistics is the minimum recognition for a civ that was more and better seafaring than other AoE2 civs that are, however, more bonused than the Spanish in the maritime aspect of the game (such as Turks or Italians). And not having the caravel, even if it was in a post-Portuguese Age (namely, in the Imperial Age, and the elite caravel through an unit upgrade in that same Age), is not very understandable.

Just a humble opinion.

[Edit: replace "Bombard Cannon" (it was a misprint) with "Cannon Galleon", which is the unit that really benefits from Ballistics technology as a peculiarity of the Spanish civilization]

[Gorilianul]

Basically when the colonial powers of south western Europe got into the Americas they found a bunch of guys fighting them with sticks and stones (Wooden Spears, Obsidian Arrows and Obsidian edged axe like weapons) they beat them up like they were a bunch of kids playing cops and robbers, stole their loot, their lands, their women, took them all to their boats (caravels), took it home, got rich and affluent, and that's about it.

[Sumo Cerdote]

引用自 jonoliveira12：

引用自 Sumo Cerdote：

Conventionally, the beginning of the Middle Ages is located in the year 476 with the fall of the Western Roman Empire and its end in 1492 with the discovery of America by the Kingdom of Castile, a feat that the Spaniards achieved thanks to a trip made with three ships, two of which were caravels. So it cannot be said that it is not accurate to say that "In the Middle Ages proper, only the Portuguese had access to Caravels".

Spain got it's Caravels in the late 1400s, whereas Portugal developed them in the 1450s.
Spain used them to transport to the Americas, but it was Portugal that, not only invented them, but also used them to sink entire fleets from the Mamelukes, Gujarati, Chinese, Ottomans, Malaccans and Japanese.

Native Americans did not even do Ocean Warfare, while the enemies the Portuguese were facing, with their Caravels, did.
It was Portugal that not only invented the Caravel, but made it famous, not only as a transport and exploratory vessel, but also as Europe's first deep water vessel, and the world's first gunboat.

The Caravel was made famous by the Portuguese, not the Spanish.
Giving the Caravel to the Spanish, would be the same thing as giving the Samurai to the Koreans.
The Caravel is a national symbol of Portugal, and is intrinsically portuguese, as a cultural and naval object.

It is to Portugal, what the Nest of Bees is to China, or the Jaguar Knight is to Mexico.
It is a symbol of it's military culture. Non-portuguese Caravels were achieved by imitation and plan stealing. No other country even ever made Caravels as good as Portugal's, either.

Same way you cannot claim the throne of Egypt by buying a Ramses costume, you cannot claim the Caravel by making a copy.

I am sorry Spain never had huge naval victories with it's Caravels, but Portugal did. Seal-clubbing in the New World is not what Caravels are known for, they are known for circumnavigating Africa, the world, piracy and trade on the Indian Ocean, and naval conquests in East Africa and Asia.

"The Caravel was made famous by the Portuguese, not the Spanish"?
As I said above, and as it seems hardly questionable, the two most famous caravels in History are the Spaniard "La Pinta" and "La Niña", which raised the coat of arms of Castile when they arrived in America.
I am sorry Portugal never had famous Caravels, but Spain does.
PS. What do you mean "Seal-clubbing"?

[Gorilianul]

引用自 Sumo Cerdote：

引用自 jonoliveira12：

Spain got it's Caravels in the late 1400s, whereas Portugal developed them in the 1450s.
Spain used them to transport to the Americas, but it was Portugal that, not only invented them, but also used them to sink entire fleets from the Mamelukes, Gujarati, Chinese, Ottomans, Malaccans and Japanese.

Native Americans did not even do Ocean Warfare, while the enemies the Portuguese were facing, with their Caravels, did.
It was Portugal that not only invented the Caravel, but made it famous, not only as a transport and exploratory vessel, but also as Europe's first deep water vessel, and the world's first gunboat.

The Caravel was made famous by the Portuguese, not the Spanish.
Giving the Caravel to the Spanish, would be the same thing as giving the Samurai to the Koreans.
The Caravel is a national symbol of Portugal, and is intrinsically portuguese, as a cultural and naval object.

It is to Portugal, what the Nest of Bees is to China, or the Jaguar Knight is to Mexico.
It is a symbol of it's military culture. Non-portuguese Caravels were achieved by imitation and plan stealing. No other country even ever made Caravels as good as Portugal's, either.

Same way you cannot claim the throne of Egypt by buying a Ramses costume, you cannot claim the Caravel by making a copy.

I am sorry Spain never had huge naval victories with it's Caravels, but Portugal did. Seal-clubbing in the New World is not what Caravels are known for, they are known for circumnavigating Africa, the world, piracy and trade on the Indian Ocean, and naval conquests in East Africa and Asia.

"The Caravel was made famous by the Portuguese, not the Spanish"?
As I said above, and as it seems hardly questionable, the two most famous caravels in History are the Spaniard "La Pinta" and "La Niña", which raised the coat of arms of Castile when they arrived in America.
I am sorry Portugal never had famous Caravels, but Spain does.
PS. What do you mean "Seal-clubbing"?

He means what I just said in that short description. Beating up people who were not on the same combat level as them, actually fighting with stone age weaponry.

[Sumo Cerdote]

引用自 Gorilianul：

引用自 Sumo Cerdote：

"The Caravel was made famous by the Portuguese, not the Spanish"?
As I said above, and as it seems hardly questionable, the two most famous caravels in History are the Spaniard "La Pinta" and "La Niña", which raised the coat of arms of Castile when they arrived in America.
I am sorry Portugal never had famous Caravels, but Spain does.
PS. What do you mean "Seal-clubbing"?

He means what I just said in that short description. Beating up people who were not on the same combat level as them, actually fighting with stone age weaponry.

That was not exactly a characteristic or peculiarity of Spanish colonialism, in fact much more humane than others, especially the British. Mainly insofar as the Spaniards recognized the Native Americans as "humans" and "sons of God", a great difference with what happened where others, and not the Spanish, were the conquering ones. No more "Black Legend", please; historiographically enough it is already proven that it is a hoax.

[Valarante]

引用自 jonoliveira12：

引用自 Sumo Cerdote：

The Spanish discovered America with three boats: two caravels and one "nao". The caravel was used by the Spanish and the Portuguese, but they was the Spanish who made History using it. The Spanish should have the caravel just like the Portuguese have it, if not with even more reason.

Wrong. Portugal was using Caravels to sink entire fleets and capture cities in Asia and Africa, long before teh Spanish used them to disembark in the Americas.

Not only did Portugal INVENT the Caravel, they actually used it against opponents who could fight back. Almost all the great battles involving Caravels, were under the Portuguese.

Hence it would seem fair if the Caravel would be buffed to be among the best warships in game (at least cost-efficiently).
The Portuguese already have one of the lowest win-rates on Arabia. Let them excel on water and hybrid maps more.

[jonoliveira12]

引用自 Sumo Cerdote：

引用自 jonoliveira12：

Spain got it's Caravels in the late 1400s, whereas Portugal developed them in the 1450s.
Spain used them to transport to the Americas, but it was Portugal that, not only invented them, but also used them to sink entire fleets from the Mamelukes, Gujarati, Chinese, Ottomans, Malaccans and Japanese.

Native Americans did not even do Ocean Warfare, while the enemies the Portuguese were facing, with their Caravels, did.
It was Portugal that not only invented the Caravel, but made it famous, not only as a transport and exploratory vessel, but also as Europe's first deep water vessel, and the world's first gunboat.

The Caravel was made famous by the Portuguese, not the Spanish.
Giving the Caravel to the Spanish, would be the same thing as giving the Samurai to the Koreans.
The Caravel is a national symbol of Portugal, and is intrinsically portuguese, as a cultural and naval object.

It is to Portugal, what the Nest of Bees is to China, or the Jaguar Knight is to Mexico.
It is a symbol of it's military culture. Non-portuguese Caravels were achieved by imitation and plan stealing. No other country even ever made Caravels as good as Portugal's, either.

Same way you cannot claim the throne of Egypt by buying a Ramses costume, you cannot claim the Caravel by making a copy.

I am sorry Spain never had huge naval victories with it's Caravels, but Portugal did. Seal-clubbing in the New World is not what Caravels are known for, they are known for circumnavigating Africa, the world, piracy and trade on the Indian Ocean, and naval conquests in East Africa and Asia.

"The Caravel was made famous by the Portuguese, not the Spanish"?
As I said above, and as it seems hardly questionable, the two most famous caravels in History are the Spaniard "La Pinta" and "La Niña", which raised the coat of arms of Castile when they arrived in America.
I am sorry Portugal never had famous Caravels, but Spain does.
PS. What do you mean "Seal-clubbing"?

Except it did, plenty of them, actually.
Spain still should not get the Caravel, since it is a Portuguese DESIGNED, INVENTED and ACTUALLY USED vessel.

Sorry Spain's naval History sucks, and all you have are 2 famous Caravels, and their fame is only as transports for a guy who was wrong about the way to India.

Also sorry teh Ottomans bodied the Spanish navy in the Mediterranean, but the Portuguese, WITH THEIR CARAVELS, bodied teh Ottomans on the Indian Ocean, mucgh farther away from their homwland than the Spanish ever had to fight a naval battle, with much more limited numbers.

Spain and the Netherlands used Caravels, so did the British and teh French. None of them invented teh Caravel, or ever used it to the extent the Portuguese did.

Spain's Caravels are famed for initiating genocide. Portugal's are famed for conquest and exploration of cultures who actually could fight back.

[Gorilianul]

引用自 Sumo Cerdote：

引用自 Gorilianul：

He means what I just said in that short description. Beating up people who were not on the same combat level as them, actually fighting with stone age weaponry.

That was not exactly a characteristic or peculiarity of Spanish colonialism, in fact much more humane than others, especially the British. Mainly insofar as the Spaniards recognized the Native Americans as "humans" and "sons of God", a great difference with what happened where others, and not the Spanisg, were the conquering ones. No more "Black Legend", please; historiographically enough it is already proven that it is a hoax.

In the Battle of Tenochtitlan they were quite ruthless. I don't know you agree with this proof

"Over the course of 93 days, the Spanish and their allies mounted assault after assault on the Aztec defenders, gradually wearing them down. Cortés gained the support of neighbouring Aztec subjects who saw the siege as an opportunity to be rid of Aztec reign for good. When they at last broke through the city’s defenses, the Spanish and their indigenous allies were ruthless. They subdued the Aztecs street by street, slaughtering indiscriminately and looting what they could. Houses were burned and temples destroyed. After the sack of Tenochtitlán, Cortés declared the city his on August 13, 1521. Cuauhtémoc tried to escape with some of his loyal advisors and nobles, but they were discovered and captured, and Cuauhtémoc was later hanged."

https://www.britannica.com/event/Battle-of-Tenochtitlan

[jonoliveira12]

引用自 Petschenege：

引用自 jonoliveira12：

Wrong. Portugal was using Caravels to sink entire fleets and capture cities in Asia and Africa, long before teh Spanish used them to disembark in the Americas.

Not only did Portugal INVENT the Caravel, they actually used it against opponents who could fight back. Almost all the great battles involving Caravels, were under the Portuguese.

Hence it would seem fair if the Caravel would be buffed to be among the best warships in game (at least cost-efficiently).
The Portuguese already have one of the lowest win-rates on Arabia. Let them excel on water and hybrid maps more.

The Caravel SHOULD be the best warship in the game, but expecting it to be so is not realistic.
It should, however, be a replacement for the Cannon Galleon, that can also destroy other ships in direct combat, as long as it keeps range with it's better speed.

The ingame Caravel is not a Caravel at all. Caravels were small, and very well armed, but frail and fast.
They were dependant of the much greater range of their artillery, and their incredible speed, compared to enemy vessels; not it's ability to fight in a line formation.

It is the second most advanced ship in the game (Turtle Ship actually appeared later on, though it is less technically advanced in terms of required technology, chronologically it is more advanced).
It is a shame they just made it a Sea Scorpion, as that is completely the contrary to what a Caravel was, and how they fought.

Caravel tactics were actually not much different than Mongol Cavalry Archer tactics. It was Shoot-&-Scoot taken to the extreme, on the open seas, with a well coordinated fleet.

If the Ottomans had actually got close, they would basically 1-shot any Caravel, due to how much gunpowder they had onboard.
Trouble is, no vessel at the time could actually get close, specially not without first getting severy blasted and having it's upper deck turned into a funeral pyre.

I really dislike what they did to Caravels in this game. Also Organ Guns, which are an English invention, and Portugal has no documentation of ever having used even one of them.

[Paulo Ramos]

引用自 Sumo Cerdote：

引用自 jonoliveira12：

Spain got it's Caravels in the late 1400s, whereas Portugal developed them in the 1450s.
Spain used them to transport to the Americas, but it was Portugal that, not only invented them, but also used them to sink entire fleets from the Mamelukes, Gujarati, Chinese, Ottomans, Malaccans and Japanese.

Native Americans did not even do Ocean Warfare, while the enemies the Portuguese were facing, with their Caravels, did.
It was Portugal that not only invented the Caravel, but made it famous, not only as a transport and exploratory vessel, but also as Europe's first deep water vessel, and the world's first gunboat.

The Caravel was made famous by the Portuguese, not the Spanish.
Giving the Caravel to the Spanish, would be the same thing as giving the Samurai to the Koreans.
The Caravel is a national symbol of Portugal, and is intrinsically portuguese, as a cultural and naval object.

It is to Portugal, what the Nest of Bees is to China, or the Jaguar Knight is to Mexico.
It is a symbol of it's military culture. Non-portuguese Caravels were achieved by imitation and plan stealing. No other country even ever made Caravels as good as Portugal's, either.

Same way you cannot claim the throne of Egypt by buying a Ramses costume, you cannot claim the Caravel by making a copy.

I am sorry Spain never had huge naval victories with it's Caravels, but Portugal did. Seal-clubbing in the New World is not what Caravels are known for, they are known for circumnavigating Africa, the world, piracy and trade on the Indian Ocean, and naval conquests in East Africa and Asia.

"The Caravel was made famous by the Portuguese, not the Spanish"?
As I said above, and as it seems hardly questionable, the two most famous caravels in History are the Spaniard "La Pinta" and "La Niña", which raised the coat of arms of Castile when they arrived in America.
I am sorry Portugal never had famous Caravels, but Spain does.
PS. What do you mean "Seal-clubbing"?

Sorry but the spanish are not famous for the use of caravels. By the time the spanish made their caravels the others europeans were making their own. The Spahsi were famous for their galleons. Was not the spanish who invented them?