The Portuguese Caravel needs a buff imo...

[poke_ravi]

It's pretty much worthless against enemy galleons and even does poorly in 1 vs 1 combat. The scorpion projectile doesn't work like it should imo and most of the caravels get destroyed quickly before they're able to do real damage. If they had a higher attack and more health I feel like it would be used more often. Perhaps this can be compensated for with a higher cost.

[Vonklyce]

The whole Portuguese needs a rework, i know they now have a 30% research bonus, but still, no matter how great their eco bonus is, if the UU is a complete garbage, it just makes them a "generic" civilization gameplay-wise.
Organ Gun is a glass cannon that breaks before doing anything, plus their damage barely kills even trash units, basically just a waste of gold that could be used for something else.
Feitorias aren't a replacement for villagers in most situations, their slow income and high pop consumption makes them just not worth it at all.
And Caravels as you said, they don't really have a proper role and not a good replacement for Galleons, Unlike Turtle Ships and Longboats that are actually good.

That's why i don't play as the Portuguese, because i think it's boring to play with a civilization that can only rely on their eco bonus and having crap UU or UTs.

[Venator]

"if the UU is a complete garbage, it just makes them a "generic" civilization gameplay-wise."
What?
there is a lot of civs that have bad UU and still are very good. Also, organ guns are not garbage

[Vonklyce]

Just as i said, the UU should be the main reason to differ one civilization from another, and not like 50% cheaper mills/camps(Japanese) or 10% faster working farmers(Slavs) while both their UUs being pretty much similar to generic units like Champions and Paladins, because they're just a BONUS, and that makes them have very similar gameplays styles by always having to rely on the same exact units regardless the situation.
That's what i meant by "generic", something without an identity or uniqueness, and not something bad.
But as the Organ Gun, i really don't think they're that useful, at least Hand Cannoneers can counter infantry and don't need castles to be trained.

[TheDiaper]

At least compare it with something like arambais or janis instead of an imp-only unit......

[Vonklyce]

Compare to anything at castle age, crossbows, mangonels, even monks if you're fighting an elephant civ, all of them being ranged units that are better spent gold than organ guns, and without having to rely on castles.
And yes, Janissary is one of the units that i consider kinda boring for being too similar with the Hand Cannoneer, but at least they're good.

[TheDiaper]

Genoese xbows / Ballista eles / Ele archers / Mamalukes / Axemen are worse than Organ guns in castle age, and there are even more if we include non-range units.

[Vonklyce]

Yeah i also consider Genoese Crossbows and Ballista Elephants one of the units that deserves a buff/rework, compared to other UUs, they're not that effective, maybe the BE can be if somehow you manage to mass them, but that's every unlikely to happen.
Mamelukes are good the way they are, but i'd reduce a bit of their gold cost.

[Sscral]

They're not that bad, they lose to fire ships and turtle ships and do lose to Galleons 1v1, but in larger numbers they beat Galleons too(>10), and they annihilate longboats with equal resources and beat them with equal numbers in similar situations

But the problem is more that if you're losing water when you get castle age you can't mass up numbers of caravels to take advantage and if you're winning water it's worth more to upgrade the war galleys/fire ships you already have than to start producing caravels to replace them

If there was a third version of the caravel available in feudal that was comparable to the war galley I would build that instead and upgrade the caravel line instead of the galleon line, since there is not they aren't worth to build in 1v1 or even team games unless someone else is taking care of early navy and you never need to build anything before castle age, for me anyway

-edit Organ guns are awful though

[TheDiaper]

Organ guns arent that bad

https://youtu.be/LDUuDRpnWXs?t=2259
https://youtu.be/0K0KChTI19E?t=1416
And this was before update 39284, where they raise ports gold discount bonus.

Also the latest "bug fix" to projectiles might have also buffed them a bit.

[Sumo Cerdote]

The Spanish discovered America with three boats: two caravels and one "nao". The caravel was used by the Spanish and the Portuguese, but they was the Spanish who made History using it. The Spanish should have the caravel just like the Portuguese have it, if not with even more reason.

[Gorilianul]

There was this championship game, I think it was Vinchester against Daut in a king of the hill map setting if I remember correctly. Vinchester early on took over the middle, getting a huge advantage, was dominating his adeversary and all of a sudden he just drops 3 feitorias, loses a lot of pop room, His enemy then gets some bombards, light cavs and simply eliminates him lol. Feitorias are for 500 pop games not 200.

[Frozium]

Originally posted by Sumo Cerdote:

The Spanish discovered America with three boats: two caravels and one "nao". The caravel was used by the Spanish and the Portuguese, but they was the Spanish who made History using it. The Spanish should have the caravel just like the Portuguese have it, if not with even more reason.

I prefer our Flak 88 Cannon Galleons.

[Paulo Ramos]

Originally posted by Sumo Cerdote:

The Spanish discovered America with three boats: two caravels and one "nao". The caravel was used by the Spanish and the Portuguese, but they was the Spanish who made History using it. The Spanish should have the caravel just like the Portuguese have it, if not with even more reason.

The caravels were used by many europeans but just that the Portuguese invented it.

[jonoliveira12]

Portuguese Caravel needs a redesign. It should be a fast and frail Gunship (keyword: GUN) with very long Range.

Caravels certaily did not face Galleons in a line, and certaily did not use Ballista Bolts.

In fact, it was the first Gunboat designed to be an actual Gunboat, instead of adapted to the new weapons (like Galleys were).
It was also the first boat to destroy an enemy ship solely with Cannon fire, which changed Naval Warfare forever.

It should have an attack like the HC or the Bohemian Wagon, but from very far (probably Cannon Galleon Range), direct fire instead of arching, and with bonus damage to Ships and Buildings (was also the first ship to provide direct fire support to troops invading cities, due to it's very long ranged weapons, and the first ship to execute "Gunboat Diplomacy" on a town).

[jonoliveira12]

Originally posted by Paulo Ramos:

Originally posted by Sumo Cerdote:

The Spanish discovered America with three boats: two caravels and one "nao". The caravel was used by the Spanish and the Portuguese, but they was the Spanish who made History using it. The Spanish should have the caravel just like the Portuguese have it, if not with even more reason.

The caravels were used by many europeans but just that the Portuguese invented it.

In the Middle Ages proper, only the Portuguese had access to Caravels.