New Alt+F4/Queue Dodging Solution Hurts Players For Wanting To Have Fun

[DirtierThanThou]

The update that just went live is insulting to a large portion of the player base.

For those of you that don't know already, what I'm referring to is this, from 54480:

**Alt+F4 & Queue Dodging:** Included in this update is an initial measure aimed at discouraging queue dodging. Players who Alt+F4 out of queues will receive progressive timeouts and their ability to rejoin the queue will be affected depending on the frequency with which they disconnect to work around the matchmaking system. This is being deployed for the first time in this Update and we’ll be monitoring activity and feedback to see where adjustments may be needed.

This is a disruptive band aid solution to a problem that has not been fixed. The problem is: there are players that want to play only certain maps and are unable to do so with the current DE matchmaking system.

The ranked matchmaking system is challenging and fun and a great way to match up evenly with players of similar skill but some maps and playstyles are not enjoyable for all players. The maps with the most differentiation and are the largest source of Alt+F4s are: Arabia, Arena, Black Forest, Islands and Nomad. These maps demand vastly different playstyles and require somewhat unique skill sets. Players opt to play only the maps they find fun and engaging with their skill set and will drop out of a map they don't want to play. Simpler: Some players only like and have fun on certain maps and only play those maps. This is not new, this is how the original ranked system worked and how the ranked system worked in HD. What's new is the matchmaking system as opposed to the lobby system.

This proposed solution in 54480 treats those players like they're wrong and bad for liking those maps and playing the game the way they want. Yes, I agree the Alt+F4 problem is a real problem and should be addressed but this idea is very bad for those players who feel forced to play a map they don't like in a playstyle they are not competent with. This proposed solution will serve to limit the amount of queue dodgers at any one time but not because they are not there and not upset about the map pool, it will only hide them away and push them into a corner so as not to bother the other players. Great, now that player base is alienated and punished for trying to have fun with a beloved, cherished game. Mission Unaccomplished.

Further, this proposed solution is biased towards those want to play Arabia-style maps (More open maps with fixed starting points and focus on early aggression) because those are the most common map type. Every rotation there are a few maps that cater to those players (And fair enough, as there are more players that want those map types than any other) while there is only one Nomad, Islands, or Black Forest styled map. For instance in the current rotation of Team Random Map there is Arabia, Scandinavia, Mega Random and Valley for open map favoring players whilst there is one water map, two enclosed style maps (Arena and Hill Fort), one Nomad style and Black Forest. The map pool is already catered to those who wish for a certain playstyle and now with the current update the ones who do not wish for that playstyle in their games are being punished further.

A solution that serves all players would be this: infinite map bans. All players get to play only the maps they wish to play and there are no more queue dodgers. No more queue drops and everyone gets to play the maps they want with other players that want those maps. This is how it was in the original, this is how it was in HD. This is how it was for 20 years, why change this now and in this way? Who is to say how the game must be played and that if someone wants to play a certain map they must be punished? This game has garnered the love of people for 20 years precisely because you're able to play the game in so many ways in so many styles with so many civs on so many maps exactly how each individual likes to play it. That's Age of Empires. This proposed solution is an insulting deviation from 20 years of multiplayer AOE II and I and others are unhappy with the idea that players are now being punished for playing the game they want to play how they want to play it.

Reconsider this proposed solution and include all players in the fix. Thank you.

[Agarillobob]

infinite map bans is a can of worms tho
its a solution to some problems it opens up another couple problems
people will be able to get absurd amounts of ELO learning 1 map with 1 civ 1 strat
we would need map specific ELO for each player in those cases adn an overall ELO combined from that or soemthing

[Lance_Boyle2000]

I hate this new dodge punishment. when people leave the game, because of connection issues or why ever, before it startet, i am suppoesed to play the game to the end 2v4????
what kind of ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥. I am furios, that the devs prevent me from playing that game, I own it. I payed for it. and they put me on a time queue.

[Agarillobob]

Originally posted by Lance_Boyle2000:

I hate this new dodge punishment. when people leave the game, because of connection issues or why ever, before it startet, i am suppoesed to play the game to the end 2v4????
what kind of ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥. I am furios, that the devs prevent me from playing that game, I own it. I payed for it. and they put me on a time queue.

thats not really what this is about, this is mainly about alt F4 dodging the game before it starts
and yes other games do punish you with up to 24h timeouts if your internet craps out

they prevent you form participating in a special part of the game yes not from fully playing, usually it does more good then bad tho unless you are unlucky with very bad internet then you get false positived a lot of times
you might be entiltled to a refund in that special case tho

[DirtierThanThou]

I completely disagree with your suggestion that having a high Elo will be a problem. It was never a problem in the original or HD. I get stomped by people at lower Elos and beat people with higher Elos all the time, it is not a perfect rating system in it's own right and a slightly higher or lower Elo does not take away from the quality of gameplay significantly.

[Agarillobob]

Originally posted by DirtierThanThou:

I completely disagree with your suggestion that having a high Elo will be a problem. It was never a problem in the original or HD. I get stomped by people at lower Elos and beat people with higher Elos all the time, it is not a perfect rating system in it's own right and a slightly higher or lower Elo does not take away from the quality of gameplay significantly.

thats only 1 of the concerns tho

let pretend you play up to I dunno 3K elo 1 map 1 civ 1 strat and then decide to switch it up to another map civ strat...
Now you would need to loose 100ds of games in a row to get to an elo you are comfortable with on that map, thast not fun at all

and yea while that is a bit of an hyperbole I def see this as a possibility that could play out

for most players this will not be a problem but like I said its a can of worms this was just the most vivid problem that came to my mind

I am pretty sure devs thought about that possibilty but then they still decided for the tiemeout rather then more map bans

[earendil]

What exactly is the fun in getting a game when someone then alt+f4 out of it so you have to wait for several minutes in the ranked lobby again?

So giving a timeout is the right decision.

[ChaoticShadow]

I do not agree with your comment. This is a good solution for now. The other solution would be to have two different queues, kind of like in counter strike where each queue has a pool of maps and there's even a queue for only 1 map people for example de_dust. But thats for a game where millions play not a few hundrer thousand if that.
Many times i've been in queue for 20, 25 minutes because of dodgers, you don't feel I'm being punished for some random dudes that can only play 1 map?
In the most competitive games such as starcraft and warcraft 3 tournaments and ladder is not done on only 1 type of map. It is done on several, people have different strategies for different maps and the most pro know how to deal with them . That people in AOE where badly used to only play arabia is not the devs fault.
and though you think you are being punished just today i've had 3 quick games really fast queue times, precisely because people can't dodge anymore. so my quality of life is definitely better with this change and I fully welcome it.

[-Dare Devil/x/]

Originally posted by DirtierThanThou:

I completely disagree with your suggestion that having a high Elo will be a problem. It was never a problem in the original or HD. I get stomped by people at lower Elos and beat people with higher Elos all the time, it is not a perfect rating system in it's own right and a slightly higher or lower Elo does not take away from the quality of gameplay significantly.

-I don't remember automatic matchmaking in the original or HD.

[earendil]

Originally posted by -Dare Devil/x/:

Originally posted by DirtierThanThou:

I completely disagree with your suggestion that having a high Elo will be a problem. It was never a problem in the original or HD. I get stomped by people at lower Elos and beat people with higher Elos all the time, it is not a perfect rating system in it's own right and a slightly higher or lower Elo does not take away from the quality of gameplay significantly.

-I don't remember automatic matchmaking in the original or HD.

maybe because there was none :D

[Quintem]

It's a great change, I for one welcome it. Many other games punish players for dodging during queues, what makes you think you're any different or should have special treatment?

Age of Empires 2 is a better spectator sport with a diverse map pool. I think it would be less interesting to watch with only same map over and over. Yes their are tournaments that cater to a single map type.

Also you're arguing (almost) exclusively from a old guard point of view and it could be seen and partial gate keeping. New players don't know what map they'll enjoy, so being exposed to as many as possible might overwhelm them slightly at first. However benefit for them is getting to experience a variety of strategies and styles. Not only this but it means that people that want to play a variety of civs get to play to their civs strengths more based off map.

Unlimited bans would increase queue times and would lead to ELO being pretty wonky. It would also mean people like me or new players will get funnelled into the same few maps over and over again because people don't like playing outside their comfort zone.

You know its really depressing that so many veteran Age of Empires 2 players are one trick ponies. In a game about strategy you have people repeating the same strategy, on the same map, ad nauseam.

[DirtierThanThou]

Originally posted by earendilAoE:

Originally posted by -Dare Devil/x/:

-I don't remember automatic matchmaking in the original or HD.

maybe because there was none :D

There was no automatic matchmaking but there was Elo. People were allowed to play the maps they wanted and no one cared. But now, 20 years later, that's no longer okay and players must abide by the new rules. Why?

[-Dare Devil/x/]

Originally posted by DirtierThanThou:

Originally posted by earendilAoE:

maybe because there was none :D

There was no automatic matchmaking but there was Elo. People were allowed to play the maps they wanted and no one cared. But now, 20 years later, that's no longer okay and players must abide by the new rules. Why?

-You can still play the maps you want in lobby browser and, like old times, compare each person's stats.

-The new rules aren't really new at all. This is standard matchmaking behavior that the Age scene has been lacking for a very long time.

-Now that Age is catching up with matchmaking it also needs to implement the safe guards to deter abusers of a matchmaking system. Just like other games. FPS, Mobas, etc.

[DirtierThanThou]

I don't want special treatment and I don't want the devs to treat anyone special. I want to be left alone and to play the game the way it was designed as I have before. I think the devs should respect players wishes. I'm not in any way saying Alt+F4s are not a problem, I hate that people think its necessary to dodge a game, but it speaks to the players desires and their desires are not being met. That is the issue.

About spectating, I watch a lot of competitive AOE. Tournaments will not suffer, T90 will not suffer, streamers will not suffer from a change that allows people to play what they want.

And gate keeping? Gate keeping who? Also not old guard, I have been playing for two years tops. Nothing about unlimited bans would impede a new players ability to try new maps? Just as it did not in the original and HD.

And to your point about longer wait times: Are you suggesting that there are enough people who would use the unlimited bans to play only the maps they want that it would create a problem for those who don't care? That idea seems to be based on the fact that there are lots of people who would use the feature because there are lots of people who want that feature. So you agree that lots of people want to play only some maps. Good. Please request the devs work towards a solution for that problem. Also, some streamers and pros wait AGES for games at high Elos, that's accepted as normal why can't that be the case for all?

There is nothing depressing about the way people want to use their time. The fundamental disagreement here is that you think there is a wrong way to play... That is what's depressing that there are those who would shame others for playing the way they want. We all want to have fun in the end.

[DirtierThanThou]

Originally posted by -Dare Devil/x/:

Originally posted by DirtierThanThou:

There was no automatic matchmaking but there was Elo. People were allowed to play the maps they wanted and no one cared. But now, 20 years later, that's no longer okay and players must abide by the new rules. Why?

-You can still play the maps you want in lobby browser and, like old times, compare each person's stats.

-The new rules aren't really new at all. This is standard matchmaking behavior that the Age scene has been lacking for a very long time.

-Now that Age is catching up with matchmaking it also needs to implement the safe guards to deter abusers of a matchmaking system. Just like other games. FPS, Mobas, etc.

Lobby browser is not as competitive and the matchmaking is all over the place, a lot of smurfs and lesser skilled players exist there. It is unregulated and is therefore abused. As I said in my main post, the Elo system is fun and engaging and players wish to play that mode. Suggesting I should play another mode is not addressing the real problem.

The new rules are new. The devs have stated this is a trial and are looking for feedback. This is my feedback.

Safe guards are great, I want safeguards. Banning people for trying to play the game they want is an over reach. To compare to FPS is wrong, you can pick exactly the map you want every time in many and still engage in ranked play. To compare to MOBA is wrong, there is only one map and the great differentiation is in hero picks. Imagine if you had to pick random hero in a MOBA to fix a problem with your matchmaking service... That would be a huge mistake and is punishing the players for a failure with your system.

[DebbieDowner420]

When my first son was born, I was not there to be with my wife. I was waiting for a blackforest match for 15 minutes and missed that once in a lifetime moment. Yes, I am one of those people who was hitting ALT-F4. I did not want to disrupt other players, to make them wait, to make the game less fun, I just didn't have the time to play maps that I really don't want to play.

Besides, the way I saw it, I'd be wasting more of peoples time not hitting ALT-F4, playing an arabia team game and causing us to lose immediately because I am more of a black forest/amazon tunnel type of player.

Last night, my wife passed away. I always thought I would be the one to go first, and she would be by my side. I was however dealing with a penalty time out for not wanting to play mega random. I never got to say goodbye.

I don't like this new update.