Ideas for a Civ: Croatians

[Kamiyama]

Post ideas for any civ you want. I know there's that other thread but they're excluding Europe and Asia for some reason.

So Civs in AoE2 aren't just nations. They're tribes of people that flourished during the Dark Ages, Middle Ages, and Renaissance (Imperial Age).

The Croatians are a Eastern European people that meet all those criteria. While a smaller nation they did have a presence in every age starting in the Dark Ages and exists even today. The Croats are a Christian people who have a long history and fought the Turks during the Ottoman-Habsburg Wars of the 15th to 18th centuries.

During the Middle Ages Croatia bordered the Holy Roman Empire to the west, Hungary to the north, Serbia to the east, and the Venetian Republic to the south.

A quote from Wikipedia during a military campaign in 950 AD:
"First Croatian king Tomislav defeated the Magyar mounted invasions of the Arpads in battle and forced them across the Drava River. In 927 Tomislav's army heavily defeated the army of Bulgarian Emperor Simeon, under the command of general Alogobotur in the Battle of the Bosnian Highlands. One of Tomislav's admirals lead more than 5,000 sailors, soldiers and their families into Slavic quarter of Palermo, Sicily. At the peak of his reign, according to Byzantine emperor Constantine VII Porphyrogenitos' De Administrando Imperio, written around 950, Tomislav could raise a vast military force composed out of 100,000 infantrymen and 60,000 horsemen and a sizable fleet of 80 large ships and 100 smaller vessels. According to the palaeographic analysis of the original manuscript of De Administrando Imperio, the estimation of the number of inhabitants in medieval Croatia between 440 and 880 thousand people, and military numbers of Franks and Byzantines - the Croatian military force was most probably composed of 20,000-100,000 infantrymen, and 3,000-24,000 horsemen organized in 60 allagions."

I think 160,000 troops would have been a formidable force in 950 AD. The Croats don't seem to have been pushovers.

I'm not going to design their whole civ, but I have ideas for their units, unique unit and unique techs, and civ bonuses.


General Units:

Barracks - get both Champion and Halberdier (Croats used lots of infantry)
Archery Range - no Arbalest but get Hand Cannoneer.
Stables - Get Hussar but not Paladin (They were a Christian civ but known more for their light cavalry) no camels or elephants
Siege Workshop - No Siege Ram, No Siege Onager, get Heavy Scorpion and Bombard

The Dock will be interesting because while you would think the Croats would be a naval civ having an amphibious unique unit, during the Middle Ages Croatia was blocked access to the ocean by the Republic of Venice. So they wouldn't get any of the end-game Dock tech upgrades.

Dock - No Fast Fire Ship, No Heavy Demo Ship, No Elite Cannon Galleon. Since they're landlocked in Castle Age I'm not sure they should even get Galleon, but the only other two civs that don't get Galleon are Aztecs and Mayans. The Croats could probably build a Galleon it's not a technology issue, just a access to the ocean issue.

As a gunpowder civ they get most of the gunpowder units. I have no clue when it comes to University upgrades and stuff. That's a balance issue that's over my head. But I think they should definitely have access to Architecture.


Unique Unit: Uskok

To quote Wikipedia:
"he Uskoks (Croatian: Uskoci, pronounced [ǔsko̞t͡si], singular: Uskok; names in other languages) were irregular soldiers in Habsburg Croatia that inhabited areas on the eastern Adriatic coast and surrounding territories during the Ottoman wars in Europe. Etymologically, the word uskoci itself means "the ones who jumped in" ("the ones who ambushed") in South Slavic languages Bands of Uskoks fought a guerrilla war against the Ottomans, and they formed small units and rowed swift boats. Since the uskoks were checked on land and were rarely paid their annual subsidy, they resorted to acts of piracy."

I found a drawing of Uskoks doing a google image search. It looks like they wore robes and fought with light rifles and shortswords. They were known for being their speed over rough terrain and used guerilla warfare tactics. They were poorly paid and resorted to piracy to survive.

To represent this the unit would have a normal food cost but lower than normal gold cost. The unit would be similar to a hand cannoneer but have lower pierce damage, a little more HP, and have an attack bonus against buildings and ships instead of against infantry like the hand cannoneer. What's really special about the Uskok is that it can enter water titles and morph into an "Uskok Rowboat" which is the exact same thing. Nothing changes except the sprite. It still has the same HP, same armor, same attack. It just moves on water.

What this means is that in a battle against other units, it would usually lose. It would probably be defeated by hand cannoneers, infantry, archers, cavalry, but it would do good damage to buildings and mediocre damage to boats. (it probably wouldn't trade well versus War Galleys, but could certainly hassle trade cogs and fishing boats - which represents acts of piracy)

Why have a unique unit that is weaker than other units? Well first look at the low gold cost, and second it would be the only amphibious unit in the game. Meaning it could attack bases from lakes or rivers potentially bypassing fortifications. It's attack bonus versus buildings might let it be used as a speedy siege unit (granted not as good as a bombard or treb, but a group could cause some havoc). This has potential to be something useful and different.


Unique techs:

Guerilla Warfare - increases Uskok speed by 10% and increases their damage against buildings by 5.

^ Self explanatory. This represents the military tactics of the Croats - in numerous battles they launch surprise attacks (like at the Battle of Sisak) and utilize brief decisive engagements to break morale instead of long campaigns that destroy everything and crush everyone beneath them.

Piracy - destroying an enemy controlled basic building returns 15% of its wood cost to you as gold.

^ This represents the Uskok tendency towards piracy to earn enough to live on. It provides the Croatians with an edge in the Imperial Age that lets them earn gold in the late game when gold becomes scarce. This combined with the Uskok's low gold cost should make them an effective civ once they go Imperial.


Civ Bonuses:

Can build the Cathedral in Feudal Age. This represents that the oldest buildings in Croatia are 9th century Cathedrals like the Church of the Holy Trinity in Split. They can't research monk upgrades until Castle Age, but they can make monks in Feudal. This gives them a head start on relic gold.

Gunpowder units move 10% faster (maybe 15%?)

Possibly a rate of fire bonus for gunpowder units? (might be OP)

Architecture is free.

Wonder: Cathedral of Saint Stephen in Zagreb

[Blegh]

Covered by slavs

Croatia in the Middle Ages. Early in the 7th century a Slavic people called the Croats migrated to the area. At first they settled in Dalmatia. However in the 8th century they expanded northwards and inland.

Just remember that certain civs in the game already, cover many kingdoms, as this game isn't about kingdoms, it's about people. Celts for example, Goths, Franks, Indians, saracens. Only certain civs cover only a kingdom or an empire or collection of people that were similar. Byzantines, Chinese, Japanese

[Kamiyama]

Originally posted by bwcamp:

Covered by slavs

Croatia in the Middle Ages. Early in the 7th century a Slavic people called the Croats migrated to the area. At first they settled in Dalmatia. However in the 8th century they expanded northwards and inland.

Just remember that certain civs in the game already, cover many kingdoms, as this game isn't about kingdoms, it's about people. Celts for example, Goths, Franks, Indians, saracens. Only certain civs cover only a kingdom or an empire or collection of people that were similar. Byzantines, Chinese, Japanese

But then I could say all native american tribes are the same, couldn't I? They all descended from one group that crossed the Bering Straight, after all.

But I can't say that because it's okay to say Europeans aren't diverse and it's bad to say minority groups are all the same.

Croatian culture has over 1000 years of history and was touched by the Romans, Byzantines, Hungarians, Ottomans, Venice, Hungary, and numerous other cultures. To call them Slavic and nothing else is dishonest.

[Blegh]

Originally posted by Kamiyama:

Originally posted by bwcamp:

Covered by slavs

Croatia in the Middle Ages. Early in the 7th century a Slavic people called the Croats migrated to the area. At first they settled in Dalmatia. However in the 8th century they expanded northwards and inland.

Just remember that certain civs in the game already, cover many kingdoms, as this game isn't about kingdoms, it's about people. Celts for example, Goths, Franks, Indians, saracens. Only certain civs cover only a kingdom or an empire or collection of people that were similar. Byzantines, Chinese, Japanese

But then I could say all native american tribes are the same, couldn't I? They all descended from one group that crossed the Bering Straight, after all.

But I can't say that because it's okay to say Europeans aren't diverse and it's bad to say minority groups are all the same.

Croatian culture has over 1000 years of history and was touched by the Romans, Byzantines, Hungarians, Ottomans, Venice, Hungary, and numerous other cultures. To call them Slavic and nothing else is dishonest.

We only have 3 Native Americans in the game, Incas, Mayans, and Aztecs, all with many differences.

I'm not saying they didn't have a culture, I'm just saying what the game is.

[Kamiyama]

Where do you draw the line for the starting point? "Peoples that originated before this time are unique and people that come after are half-breeds"

The game starts in the Dark Ages. I would say the Croats qualify.

[Blegh]

Originally posted by Kamiyama:

Where do you draw the line for the starting point? "Peoples that originated before this time are unique and people that come after are half-breeds"

The game starts in the Dark Ages. I would say the Croats qualify.

??Where did I say that?

the dark ages are 500-1500 5th century to 15th century

The Croats are a slavic people, we already have Slavs in the game. If we were to split up slavs, we'd have a bunch of different new civs

[Kamiyama]

Originally posted by bwcamp:

Originally posted by Kamiyama:

Where do you draw the line for the starting point? "Peoples that originated before this time are unique and people that come after are half-breeds"

The game starts in the Dark Ages. I would say the Croats qualify.

??Where did I say that?

the dark ages are 500-1500 5th century to 15th century

The Croats are a slavic people, we already have Slavs in the game. If we were to split up slavs, we'd have a bunch of different new civs

I don't understand how the Croatian people can live as an independent group starting in the 8th century all the way to the present and not be recognized as a legitimate people but all the tribes of North America are being considered as separate "civilizations" for the game.

[Thor II]

We don't have any North American tribe in AOE II yet.

[Kamiyama]

Originally posted by Thor II:

We don't have any North American tribe in AOE II yet.

And I'm happy for any civs. But out of 5 couldn't one be Croatia?

[Blegh]

Originally posted by Kamiyama:

Originally posted by bwcamp:

??Where did I say that?

the dark ages are 500-1500 5th century to 15th century

The Croats are a slavic people, we already have Slavs in the game. If we were to split up slavs, we'd have a bunch of different new civs

I don't understand how the Croatian people can live as an independent group starting in the 8th century all the way to the present and not be recognized as a legitimate people but all the tribes of North America are being considered as separate "civilizations" for the game.

Keep ignoring my posts. Whatever man

Slavs are in the game, the Croats were a Slavic people. I'm not denying their legitimacy as an independent group, but for this game, we already have them covered, even if it may not seem like it

[Kamiyama]

Originally posted by bwcamp:

Originally posted by Kamiyama:

I don't understand how the Croatian people can live as an independent group starting in the 8th century all the way to the present and not be recognized as a legitimate people but all the tribes of North America are being considered as separate "civilizations" for the game.

Keep ignoring my posts. Whatever man

Slavs are in the game, the Croats were a Slavic people. I'm not denying their legitimacy as an independent group, but for this game, we already have them covered, even if it may not seem like it

If Croats are just another group of Slavs, then we already have Native Americans in the game and there's no need for any more.

See? I can be a jackhole too.

[Whakahoatanga]

From whichever world region they might be, I hope they consider new civs.

I personally would like to see some North American and South/Central African ones. Oceania too. Some people might put priorities on other places.

I hope they'll consider it, that's all.

[Kamiyama]

How much variation would more Native tribes add?

We already know:

- won't have stables
- won't have gunpowder
- won't have significant navies
- will probably have chainmail, scalemail, iron casting, blast forging, longswordsman, two-handed swordsman, champions, and halberdiers for balance reasons even though they didn't.

It's going to be another land-locked infantry civ just like the Mayans.

I offered something new and exciting.

[Blegh]

Originally posted by Kamiyama:

How much variation would more Native tribes add?

We already know:

- won't have stables
- won't have gunpowder
- won't have significant navies
- will probably have chainmail, scalemail, iron casting, blast forging, longswordsman, two-handed swordsman, champions, and halberdiers for balance reasons even though they didn't.

It's going to be another land-locked infantry civ just like the Mayans.

I offered something new and exciting.

so you are the best and everyone else doesn't know how to imagine civs? Get off your high horse man

[Thor II]

Originally posted by Kamiyama:

If Croats are just another group of Slavs, then we already have Native Americans in the game and there's no need for any more.

Again we don't have any North American tribe in AOE II.

That's the best proposal to date.
5 Civs:
1 African Civ:
Thai (Siam).
Poland.
Tibet( Turfan).
Tamils/ 1 African Civ.

[Blegh]

Originally posted by Thor II:

Originally posted by Kamiyama:

If Croats are just another group of Slavs, then we already have Native Americans in the game and there's no need for any more.

Again we don't have any North American tribe in AOE II.

That's the best proposal to date.
5 Civs:
1 African Civ:
Thai (Siam).
Poland.
Tibet( Turfan).
Tamils/ 1 African Civ.

That's only 4, Tamils, already have Indians in the game