Top 3 Best & Worst unique units

[Meat Machine]

Which unique units do you believe are the best and worst? Why?
Here's my assessment:

BEST
-Conquistador. Very powerful and mobile raiding unit in early Castle Age with few/no upgrades, and evolves into a fairly tanky combat unit later on.
-Huskarl. Fast-moving (for infantry), ignores damage from and slaughters ranged units, and can be pumped out extremely fast. A class of its own.
-Konnik. Powerful, versatile, and cannot be hard-countered by any single unit. Lots of upgrades in long matches, and easier to amass due to Kreposts.

WORST
-Elephant Archer. Extremely vulnerable to trash units and conversion; middling damage output, expensive, and slow. A cavalry archer, with none of the benefits of a cavalry archer.
-Imperial Skirmisher. A completely redundant alternative to Rattan Archers, the proper Vietnamese unique unit which does everything they do, better, and with none of the weaknesses.
-Boyar. Its defining strength (high melee armor) does little to mitigate the massive bonus damage from its main melee counters - Harberdiers and Heavy Camel Riders. Only particularly good against what is arguably the weakest unit class in the game: heavy infantry.

[Tōji Fushiguro]

you can't make this ♥♥♥♥ up

[Meat Machine]

引用自 Rissen：

you can't make this ♥♥♥♥ up

Imperial Skirmishers are not weak, but rather, incredibly redundant for the Vietnamese player. They are easier to mass, less expensive, and make more powerful anti-archers than Elite Rattan Archers, but don't cover a particular niche that Elite Rattan Archers don't overlap significantly in. IMO, the Vietnamese unique techs, bonuses, and team bonuses make them more of a support civ for team games, which is why I think Imperial Skirmishers are better on other civs (such as Aztecs with Atlatl, or Inca with Andean Sling and reliance on gold units)

Also, Berbers provide Genitours and Elite Genitours, a similar shared unique unit which, unlike Imperial Skirmishers, cost no gold to upgrade.

Genitour -> Elite Genitour (500F, 450W)
Elite Skirmisher -> Imperial Skirmisher (300W, 450G)

You can argue that Paper Money pays for the gold cost in the upgrade, but that's yet another hoop for the Vietnamese player to jump through to share effectively.

EDIT: Also, after reading the thread and having played more, I'd certainly replace the Konnik with the Mangudai. There's just no denying that fully-upgraded Mangudai are among the strongest units in the game, with only soft-counters that they can typically out-micromanage.

[TheDiaper]

Genitours are kind of meh, yes they have more HP and mobility, but they cost double the food as well as taking bonus damage from halbs.

[76561199096712327]

引用自 Meat Machine：

引用自 Rissen：

you can't make this ♥♥♥♥ up

Imperial Skirmishers are not weak, but rather, incredibly redundant for the Vietnamese player. They are easier to mass, less expensive, and make more powerful anti-archers than Elite Rattan Archers, but don't cover a particular niche that Elite Rattan Archers don't overlap significantly in.

Rattan Archer < Imp Skirmisher in Viet mirror.

#REKT

[jonoliveira12]

The best UUs in the game are:
-Janissary in the Castle Age, because it outranges it's own counters, and can 5-shot a Mangonel.
-Huskarl, which honestly does not need an explaination, it is the most spammed UU in the game and actually crucial to the civ that has it.
-Longbow, because killing everything before it comes close enough to retaliate, is way too resource-efficient; though this really only happens in the Imperial Age with Bracer and Yeoman researched.

The worst are:
-Karambit, as it costs Gold, and is on a civ that gets Trash Two-handed Swordsmen, so it is unnecessary and more of a luxury, just so Malay gets an UU.
-Cataphract, because as good as it is, it still is not as good as Paladin, and Byzantines have Paladin, which is easier and cheaper to upgrade.
-Jaguar Warrior, because a Melee Hand Cannoneer (Infantry counter) is really awkward, and not necessary on a civ that has Arbalests with Bracer, and Elite Eagles/Champs with Garland Wars.

[Virgil]

My ranking from my POV as a semi-noob

Best:
- Mangudai are incredibly versatile and deadly in large numbers.
- Throwing Axemen are not the best in absolute terms but come at exactly the right time for the Frankish player. In late-imp armies they also work well with palys and bombard cannons.
- Huskarl are absolutely brutal if you can't counter them effectively
- Chu Ko Nu do well in a range of situations even against units archers usually struggle with. And they nuke rams.
- Cataphracts tie the Byz civ well and fill an important niche
- Longbowmen are incredibly useful and go so well with the rest of the Briton army. I always dread playing against the Brits for this reason
- War Elephants have a lot of issues but they are by far the most satisfying unit to mass and throw at the opponent

Honorary mentions: Mamelukes are fun to use, too bad they cost a lot IMO. Leitis and Camel Archers if they were slightly less situational. Samurai because they can nuke Huskarls and Halberdiers among other things

Worst: (these are more a reflection of me not knowing what to do with them)
- Keshiks seem redundant to me
- Flaming camels are not that useful beyond the troll factor
- Missionaries, I just hate them instinctively
- Janissaries (has more to do with the civ's overall problems)
- Organ Guns, Portuguese are hard for noobs to use in general
- War Wagons are strong but I strongly dislike their playstyle and they look stupid

[yuzhonglu]

WTF? Boyars are a great UU. They're a paladin replacement that beat paladins. I'd rather have a slav player with Elite Boyars than a Frank player with paladins.

[yuzhonglu]

引用自 Meat Machine：

引用自 Rissen：

you can't make this ♥♥♥♥ up

Imperial Skirmishers are not weak, but rather, incredibly redundant for the Vietnamese player. They are easier to mass, less expensive, and make more powerful anti-archers than Elite Rattan Archers, but don't cover a particular niche that Elite Rattan Archers don't overlap significantly in. IMO, the Vietnamese unique techs, bonuses, and team bonuses make them more of a support civ for team games, which is why I think Imperial Skirmishers are better on other civs (such as Aztecs with Atlatl, or Inca with Andean Sling and reliance on gold units)

Also, Berbers provide Genitours and Elite Genitours, a similar shared unique unit which, unlike Imperial Skirmishers, cost no gold to upgrade.

Genitour -> Elite Genitour (500F, 450W)
Elite Skirmisher -> Imperial Skirmisher (300W, 450G)

You can argue that Paper Money pays for the gold cost in the upgrade, but that's yet another hoop for the Vietnamese player to jump through to share effectively.

EDIT: Also, after reading the thread and having played more, I'd certainly replace the Konnik with the Mangudai. There's just no denying that fully-upgraded Mangudai are among the strongest units in the game, with only soft-counters that they can typically out-micromanage.

Imperial skirms don't cost gold. Also, you don't need castles to get them. And they counter enemy skirms, which the other player will get against Viet.

And Mangudai are overrated. They get wrecked/ hard countered by Rattans, Longbows, Ethiopian arbs, Berber Camel Archers, and even Cho Ko Nus, and Kipchaks and Hun Cav Archers trade cost evenly against them. And of course Elite Eagles wreck them, especially the Incan and Mayan variety.

[TheDiaper]

引用自 yuzhonglu：

WTF? Boyars are a great UU. They're a paladin replacement that beat paladins. I'd rather have a slav player with Elite Boyars than a Frank player with paladins.

Stable + Chivalry = Better production

[TheDiaper]

引用自 yuzhonglu：

Imperial skirms don't cost gold. Also, you don't need castles to get them. And they counter enemy skirms, which the other player will get against Viet.

And Mangudai are overrated. They get wrecked/ hard countered by Rattans, Longbows, Ethiopian arbs, Berber Camel Archers, and even Cho Ko Nus, and Kipchaks and Hun Cav Archers trade cost evenly against them. And of course Elite Eagles wreck them, especially the Incan and Mayan variety.

https://youtu.be/LDUuDRpnWXs?t=2124
https://youtu.be/0K0KChTI19E?t=187

Both Viper and Hera placed them in S-tier.

[76561199096712327]

引用自 yuzhonglu：

WTF? Boyars are a great UU. They're a paladin replacement that beat paladins. I'd rather have a slav player with Elite Boyars than a Frank player with paladins.

You will lose badly.

Elite Boyar is only marginally better than a Frankish Paladin (Boyar dies in 17 hits, Fr.Paladin in 15), however Franks can outproduce easily because Stables are common and there is also Chivalry on top of that. Superior numbers make for massive victories.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpjxWBwLkIE

[yuzhonglu]

Boyar + halb beats Franks. 1v1 and 2v2.

What are the Franks gonna do? Mass axeman against Boyars? Use halbs against Slav halbs? Build French Skirms? What?

Boyars are a perfectly fine UU. Not like the best, but I'd put it at teutonic knight levels of goodness. Weak vs halbs, but a lot faster.

[76561199096712327]

引用自 yuzhonglu：

Boyar + halb beats Franks. 1v1 and 2v2.

What are the Franks gonna do? Mass axeman against Boyars? Use halbs against Slav halbs?

In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not.

On paper Byzantines vs Goths should follow the same logic with Cataphracts + Arbalests, but in practice you often cannot sustain UU production and will just die:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsAZMpKEQBM

[yuzhonglu]

But you can just mass halbs vs Franks with a smattering of Boyars.

And if the Franks counter with axeman, that needs castles too. And if Franks go hand cannons, the Slaves have siege.

[76561199096712327]

If your logic was sound, then Slavs would be de facto counterpick vs cav civs.

But they are not. Can you guess why?