Goths Nerf

[Bullet Force]

The recent patch was a huge and uncalled for nerf to the Goths. The Goths have been a super strong like say the Mongols and Huns and statistically they are not in the top 10 for wins/losses.

A recent patch gave them a bonus of cheaper infantry in Dark Age which was a small offset to the previous nerf they received by giving all other supplies. However to then go and nerf them by first staggering their cheaper infantry bonus from having 35% from Fuedal Age to instead having 35% in Imperial and also then nerfing their damage vs buildings to also only fully apply in Imperial Age is unacceptable.

Most Goth players would prefer the original setup plus making supplies available to them.

[jonoliveira12]

They need to buff Goths properly.

I suggest giving them Plate Barding Armour (they do not even have Paladin, and Gothic Plate would be thematic), seeing as their Hussars are too substandard at lategame; and changing their +10 pop bonus to +10%.

Goths suffer a lot on lategame, and have issues against Siege. Giving them FU Hussars without bonii would atleast fix one of their greatest weaknesses.

The Arson nerf is also silly. It now only applies in the Age at which Goths are rtacing against. It is basically a null bonus, and the resources it saves are not enough to mean anything.

Goths really got the short end of the stick in this patch.

[Hvscarl]

The biggest issue since DE came out for the Goths has been supplies.

The solution is right in front of us, give the Goths the Supplies tech. In order to compensate, go ahead and put it back to the original Feudal -10%, Castle -15%, Imperial -25%.

Hunters carry +30 meat.

Militia line infantry gain +1 pierce armour per age starting in Feudal. Forget the +1 against buildings bonus, give back Arson.

+10% population in Imperial age.

The main problem for Goths is surviving Feudal against civs they are suppose to be good against (Archer civs), and allowing an early M@A rush - not the Dark age rush, which now you will only be able to muster 6 Militia, which is only situational in 1v1s at best. This might not even be enough, but it's a template to fix something without creating two extra problems as they have been doing.

I would also give Goths siege engineers, and siege onagers, in exchange for the cannon-pushers. The also unhistorical hand cannoneers can be sacrificed for plate barding armour.

[jonoliveira12]

Originally posted by hvscarl:

The biggest issue since DE came out for the Goths has been supplies.

The solution is right in front of us, give the Goths the Supplies tech. In order to compensate, go ahead and put it back to the original Feudal -10%, Castle -15%, Imperial -25%.

Hunters carry +30 meat.

Militia line infantry gain +1 pierce armour per age starting in Feudal. Forget the +1 against buildings bonus, give back Arson.

+10% population in Imperial age.

The main problem for Goths is surviving Feudal against civs they are suppose to be good against (Archer civs), and allowing an early M@A rush - not the Dark age rush, which now you will only be able to muster 6 Militia, which is only situational in 1v1s at best. This might not even be enough, but it's a template to fix something without creating two extra problems as they have been doing.

I would also give Goths siege engineers, and siege onagers, in exchange for the cannon-pushers. The also unhistorical hand cannoneers can be sacrificed for plate barding armour.

I have a counter suggestion:

1- Revert Infantry anti-building bonus to scale from Dark Age to Castle Age.

2- -20% Infantry cost in Dark Age, -35% in Feudal Age

3- Give Plate Barding Armour, so they have at least one trash unit fully upgraded (Hussar, and Gothic Plate was also iconic Cavalry armour)

4- +10 pop bonus replaced with +10%.

Goths just have no lategame options (no Thumb Ring so Elite Skirmishers and Heavy Cavalry Archers are not very good, no Plate Barding so Cavalry is also subpar, and no Platemail Armour so their Halbs are very easy to counter with Skirmishers, not to mention bad Siege). They could use FU Hussars to combat the few things their Infantry is actually awful at, like Hand Cannoneers, Organ Guns, Slingers, Conquistadors and so on.

Goths have almost all the things they need to be great, including decent bonii, but some are just woefully outdated (+10 pop is inconsequential in a 200 pop match), or just kick in way too late, when Goths are a Castle Age Rush civ at heart.

[jonoliveira12]

Originally posted by hvscarl:

Militia line infantry gain +1 pierce armour per age starting in Feudal. Forget the +1 against buildings bonus, give back Arson.

They also cannot do this one, since it is the Malians bonus.

[Hvscarl]

Originally posted by jonoliveira12:

Originally posted by hvscarl:

The biggest issue since DE came out for the Goths has been supplies.

The solution is right in front of us, give the Goths the Supplies tech. In order to compensate, go ahead and put it back to the original Feudal -10%, Castle -15%, Imperial -25%.

Hunters carry +30 meat.

Militia line infantry gain +1 pierce armour per age starting in Feudal. Forget the +1 against buildings bonus, give back Arson.

+10% population in Imperial age.

The main problem for Goths is surviving Feudal against civs they are suppose to be good against (Archer civs), and allowing an early M@A rush - not the Dark age rush, which now you will only be able to muster 6 Militia, which is only situational in 1v1s at best. This might not even be enough, but it's a template to fix something without creating two extra problems as they have been doing.

I would also give Goths siege engineers, and siege onagers, in exchange for the cannon-pushers. The also unhistorical hand cannoneers can be sacrificed for plate barding armour.

I have a counter suggestion:

1- Revert Infantry anti-building bonus to scale from Dark Age to Castle Age.

2- -20% Infantry cost in Dark Age, -35% in Feudal Age

3- Give Plate Barding Armour, so they have at least one trash unit fully upgraded (Hussar, and Gothic Plate was also iconic Cavalry armour)

4- +10 pop bonus replaced with +10%.

Goths just have no lategame options (no Thumb Ring so Elite Skirmishers and Heavy Cavalry Archers are not very good, no Plate Barding so Cavalry is also subpar, and no Platemail Armour so their Halbs are very easy to counter with Skirmishers, not to mention bad Siege). They could use FU Hussars to combat the few things their Infantry is actually awful at, like Hand Cannoneers, Organ Guns, Slingers, Conquistadors and so on.

Goths have almost all the things they need to be great, including decent bonii, but some are just woefully outdated (+10 pop is inconsequential in a 200 pop match), or just kick in way too late, when Goths are a Castle Age Rush civ at heart.

I will give my opinion on your suggestions.

1. This makes sense, and would actually be useful.

2. Let's see how that would work with Supplies. M@A's would be 24 food and 13 gold, probably a little too cheap - which is why it needs to be lowered to the original. If Goths don't get supplies, I totally agree with you.

3. and 4. We agree on.

Maybe Thumb Ring is needed to make Cav archers viable. Do Goths get Partian tactics?

The other option is, give them regular Plate Armour. At the very least they should get that if not Supplies. But that's been the entire issue from the start. They obviously didn't think how it would effect Gothic players.

[jonoliveira12]

Originally posted by hvscarl:

Originally posted by jonoliveira12:

I have a counter suggestion:

1- Revert Infantry anti-building bonus to scale from Dark Age to Castle Age.

2- -20% Infantry cost in Dark Age, -35% in Feudal Age

3- Give Plate Barding Armour, so they have at least one trash unit fully upgraded (Hussar, and Gothic Plate was also iconic Cavalry armour)

4- +10 pop bonus replaced with +10%.

Goths just have no lategame options (no Thumb Ring so Elite Skirmishers and Heavy Cavalry Archers are not very good, no Plate Barding so Cavalry is also subpar, and no Platemail Armour so their Halbs are very easy to counter with Skirmishers, not to mention bad Siege). They could use FU Hussars to combat the few things their Infantry is actually awful at, like Hand Cannoneers, Organ Guns, Slingers, Conquistadors and so on.

Goths have almost all the things they need to be great, including decent bonii, but some are just woefully outdated (+10 pop is inconsequential in a 200 pop match), or just kick in way too late, when Goths are a Castle Age Rush civ at heart.

I will give my opinion on your suggestions.

1. This makes sense, and would actually be useful.

2. Let's see how that would work with Supplies. M@A's would be 24 food and 13 gold, probably a little too cheap - which is why it needs to be lowered to the original. If Goths don't get supplies, I totally agree with you.

3. and 4. We agree on.

Maybe Thumb Ring is needed to make Cav archers viable. Do Goths get Partian tactics?

The other option is, give them regular Plate Armour. At the very least they should get that if not Supplies. But that's been the entire issue from the start. They obviously didn't think how it would effect Gothic players.

Goths get no Thumb Ring or Parthian Tactics, but they are supposed to have bad ranged abilities, that is why they have no Arbalests or even Guard Towers (though they could give them Arrow Slits, though I would not mid being without it).

About giving them Supplies, I think it would just make them less unique, so I am against it. -35% Infantry cost from Feudal was balanced, I do not know why the pushed it to Imp. -20% on Dark Age would be a good Eco buff, meaning Goth M@A rush would hit fast in Feudal, but no real Militia Rush in Dark Age.

Giving them Plate Armour would just make them even more one-sided, and possibly OP. I think we should just give them Plate Barding, as Goths actually had good Heavy Cavalry, and Heavy Plate was known as Gothic Plate in Central Europe for a reason.

Keep their Infantry with only Chainmail, but allow them to get FU Hussars as a complement, and good Cavaliers in case they are needed (vs Japanese it would help).

[Cacomistle]

Every single high level player thought goths were cancer and they were banned from tournaments.

I think where we are now, its about on par with the original set up, which is pretty bad.

I think that what should happen here is that they've basically reverted the change enough that goths won't be cancer in dark age anymore, but its still useful to them early on. But now, they're probably garbage again, or they're forced into men at arms or militia floods pretty much every game. Otherwise they're not even the same trash civ as before, they're actually worse before imperial.

So the question is, what should they get as a compensation for that? I think they just need something small that helps them out in castle age or late feudal. They have the threat of milita/maa going for them early on, but they need some way to do literally anything else or they're a boring predictable civ.

I'd give them some buff on the level of teutons +1 armor in castle age. Something that can help them out without any investment in castle age, but does a relatively small amount. Then that might leave them in a position of a mediocre civ. But not cancer, or unarguably the worst civ.

Giving them something like cav armor could be decent too. Make it so goths actually look forward to their late game a bit more.

If it wasn't for the fact they do patches like once every 2 months, I'd say this is fine. Leave them like this for a couple weeks, see how they perform, then make necessary adjustments. Kind of tells if the concept is too op or not. But, they do updates too slow for incremental changes like that, so I honestly think they should just revert to original goths and give them cav armor. Not supplies unless they get some unique supplies that reduces it by 10 instead of 15 (about a 35% reduction on the 15 food supplies normally gives to keep it as effective percentage-wise).

[jonoliveira12]

Originally posted by Cacomistle:

Every single high level player thought goths were cancer and they were banned from tournaments.

I think where we are now, its about on par with the original set up, which is pretty bad.

I think that what should happen here is that they've basically reverted the change enough that goths won't be cancer in dark age anymore, but its still useful to them early on. But now, they're probably garbage again, or they're forced into men at arms or militia floods pretty much every game. Otherwise they're not even the same trash civ as before, they're actually worse before imperial.

So the question is, what should they get as a compensation for that? I think they just need something small that helps them out in castle age or late feudal. They have the threat of milita/maa going for them early on, but they need some way to do literally anything else or they're a boring predictable civ.

I'd give them some buff on the level of teutons +1 armor in castle age. Something that can help them out without any investment in castle age, but does a relatively small amount. Then that might leave them in a position of a mediocre civ. But not cancer, or unarguably the worst civ.

Giving them something like cav armor could be decent too. Make it so goths actually look forward to their late game a bit more.

If it wasn't for the fact they do patches like once every 2 months, I'd say this is fine. Leave them like this for a couple weeks, see how they perform, then make necessary adjustments. Kind of tells if the concept is too op or not. But, they do updates too slow for incremental changes like that, so I honestly think they should just revert to original goths and give them cav armor. Not supplies unless they get some unique supplies that reduces it by 10 instead of 15 (about a 35% reduction on the 15 food supplies normally gives to keep it as effective percentage-wise).

It is worse than the original setup, since the anti-building bonus damage only really kicks in at Imperial Age, and the staggered cost reduction does so aswell.

Goths whole game was delayed to Imperial Age, when they already are at their weakest.

Buth yes, just give FU Hussars, and change the pop bonus to +10%.

[Cacomistle]

Originally posted by jonoliveira12:

Originally posted by Cacomistle:

Every single high level player thought goths were cancer and they were banned from tournaments.

I think where we are now, its about on par with the original set up, which is pretty bad.

I think that what should happen here is that they've basically reverted the change enough that goths won't be cancer in dark age anymore, but its still useful to them early on. But now, they're probably garbage again, or they're forced into men at arms or militia floods pretty much every game. Otherwise they're not even the same trash civ as before, they're actually worse before imperial.

So the question is, what should they get as a compensation for that? I think they just need something small that helps them out in castle age or late feudal. They have the threat of milita/maa going for them early on, but they need some way to do literally anything else or they're a boring predictable civ.

I'd give them some buff on the level of teutons +1 armor in castle age. Something that can help them out without any investment in castle age, but does a relatively small amount. Then that might leave them in a position of a mediocre civ. But not cancer, or unarguably the worst civ.

Giving them something like cav armor could be decent too. Make it so goths actually look forward to their late game a bit more.

If it wasn't for the fact they do patches like once every 2 months, I'd say this is fine. Leave them like this for a couple weeks, see how they perform, then make necessary adjustments. Kind of tells if the concept is too op or not. But, they do updates too slow for incremental changes like that, so I honestly think they should just revert to original goths and give them cav armor. Not supplies unless they get some unique supplies that reduces it by 10 instead of 15 (about a 35% reduction on the 15 food supplies normally gives to keep it as effective percentage-wise).

It is worse than the original setup, since the anti-building bonus damage only really kicks in at Imperial Age, and the staggered cost reduction does so aswell.

Goths whole game was delayed to Imperial Age, when they already are at their weakest.

Buth yes, just give FU Hussars, and change the pop bonus to +10%.

I don't know about doing both of those. A player might on average have like 120 vills in post imp. If goths have population for 20 more on top of that, along with FU hussars and cheaper spears, how are they ever going to die? They might not win, but they'll be able to flood until they run out of wood at least, which could make them complete cancer on maps like arena, where they're hard to raid and have tons of wood.

And it leaves them in a position where they're a powerhouse post imperial civ, with no way to get there.

I think they just need to have some way to get to imp, and a small buff in post imp (I like FU hussars, I don't like 220 pop cause I think that just leads to too many bodies for the other player to ever push). And I don't think "men at arms or you're even worse than before" is the way to go. I don't like the dark age infantry bonus in the first place, but at least if you're gonna do that don't nerf their standard play. It wasn't viable before, it didn't need a nerf. You're actually just playing a civ without a bonus if you don't flood militia or men at arms.

[jonoliveira12]

Originally posted by Cacomistle:

Originally posted by jonoliveira12:

It is worse than the original setup, since the anti-building bonus damage only really kicks in at Imperial Age, and the staggered cost reduction does so aswell.

Goths whole game was delayed to Imperial Age, when they already are at their weakest.

Buth yes, just give FU Hussars, and change the pop bonus to +10%.

I don't know about doing both of those. A player might on average have like 120 vills in post imp. If goths have population for 20 more on top of that, along with FU hussars and cheaper spears, how are they ever going to die? They might not win, but they'll be able to flood until they run out of wood at least, which could make them complete cancer on maps like arena, where they're hard to raid and have tons of wood.

And it leaves them in a position where they're a powerhouse post imperial civ, with no way to get there.

I think they just need to have some way to get to imp, and a small buff in post imp (I like FU hussars, I don't like 220 pop cause I think that just leads to too many bodies for the other player to ever push). And I don't think "men at arms or you're even worse than before" is the way to go. I don't like the dark age infantry bonus in the first place, but at least if you're gonna do that don't nerf their standard play. It wasn't viable before, it didn't need a nerf. You're actually just playing a civ without a bonus if you don't flood militia or men at arms.

They have no Eco bonus, so 120 vills would not be OP.

Anyway, I am more inclined to believe that people would still stop at 100 Vils, and use the extra 20 pop on counter units, like Halbs, Skirms and Hussars.

Goth Halbs lose to Turk and Frank Skirms (both compete for worst in the game) due to lack of Plate Armour. It really hurts their trash a lot.
Not to mention that you never see Goths going for Elite Skirms because no Thumb Ring, and Hussars cost 80 Food, so they would likely fill that +20 pop, rather than go into the main Infantry army, or they would cut too much into the Food economy.

[Cacomistle]

Originally posted by jonoliveira12:

Originally posted by Cacomistle:

I don't know about doing both of those. A player might on average have like 120 vills in post imp. If goths have population for 20 more on top of that, along with FU hussars and cheaper spears, how are they ever going to die? They might not win, but they'll be able to flood until they run out of wood at least, which could make them complete cancer on maps like arena, where they're hard to raid and have tons of wood.

And it leaves them in a position where they're a powerhouse post imperial civ, with no way to get there.

I think they just need to have some way to get to imp, and a small buff in post imp (I like FU hussars, I don't like 220 pop cause I think that just leads to too many bodies for the other player to ever push). And I don't think "men at arms or you're even worse than before" is the way to go. I don't like the dark age infantry bonus in the first place, but at least if you're gonna do that don't nerf their standard play. It wasn't viable before, it didn't need a nerf. You're actually just playing a civ without a bonus if you don't flood militia or men at arms.

They have no Eco bonus, so 120 vills would not be OP.

Anyway, I am more inclined to believe that people would still stop at 100 Vils, and use the extra 20 pop on counter units, like Halbs, Skirms and Hussars.

Goth Halbs lose to Turk and Frank Skirms (both compete for worst in the game) due to lack of Plate Armour. It really hurts their trash a lot.
Not to mention that you never see Goths going for Elite Skirms because no Thumb Ring, and Hussars cost 80 Food, so they would likely fill that +20 pop, rather than go into the main Infantry army, or they would cut too much into the Food economy.

Most civs do not have a late game eco bonus. You're looking at slavs, khmer, celts, and that's about it.

Stuff like aztecs technically have one too, but 5 carry capacity isn't that big when you already have hand cart. 20 villager pop would be bigger than slavs is, which would make them the best late game eco by far. And I guess teutons cheaper farms kind of help, but the wood cost is more important for setting them up in the first place.

So 3 civs with an actually significant bonus. And maybe 2-3 more with a tiny bonus.

Of course, that's only assuming we aren't counting unit discounts as an eco bonus, because obviously goths have a huge discount on infantry. And realistically, a 35% discount on your units is far more significant in post imp than a 10% farming buff (the probable best imp age eco bonus).

[jonoliveira12]

Originally posted by Cacomistle:

Originally posted by jonoliveira12:

They have no Eco bonus, so 120 vills would not be OP.

Anyway, I am more inclined to believe that people would still stop at 100 Vils, and use the extra 20 pop on counter units, like Halbs, Skirms and Hussars.

Goth Halbs lose to Turk and Frank Skirms (both compete for worst in the game) due to lack of Plate Armour. It really hurts their trash a lot.
Not to mention that you never see Goths going for Elite Skirms because no Thumb Ring, and Hussars cost 80 Food, so they would likely fill that +20 pop, rather than go into the main Infantry army, or they would cut too much into the Food economy.

Most civs do not have a late game eco bonus. You're looking at slavs, khmer, celts, and that's about it.

Stuff like aztecs technically have one too, but 5 carry capacity isn't that big when you already have hand cart. 20 villager pop would be bigger than slavs is, which would make them the best late game eco by far. And I guess teutons cheaper farms kind of help, but the wood cost is more important for setting them up in the first place.

So 3 civs with an actually significant bonus. And maybe 2-3 more with a tiny bonus.

Of course, that's only assuming we aren't counting unit discounts as an eco bonus, because obviously goths have a huge discount on infantry. And realistically, a 35% discount on your units is far more significant in post imp than a 10% farming buff (the probable best imp age eco bonus).

Goth Infantry is, however, only cheap, not specially efficient at all. Their Campions lose against generic Cahmpions, and their Halberdiers lose against base Skirmisher with Bracer, or Elite skirmishers with Bodkin Arrow.

All Goths have is cheap subpar Infantry (only Persians and Tatars have worse), and a good UU.
Even if the +10% pop would be used solely on Vils, it would not make their Economy too strong, since they actually need to constantly pump out easilly countered Infantry on the lategame.

[Hvscarl]

Originally posted by Cacomistle:

I think they just need something small that helps them out in castle age or late feudal.

Simple, give Goths stone wall.

Not unique enough anymore? Come on, the Cumans get palisade wall too, but it's twice as strong. It bottlenecks Goths to go back to playing Black Forest and Arena. If Goths don't get supplies, then it should kick in early and keep increasing.

-25% Dark Age
-30% Feudal Age
-35% Castle Age
-40% Imperial Age

+10 pop stays

Plate Barding would be useful, but right now the infantry at Imperial are supposed to be the Goth's dominant trait. They need something that makes their civ bonuses make sense.

I'd like to point out that in AoC the Goth's were the only ones with 2 civ techs. Now everyone gets two. What's an Imperial tech that could help out their situation?

[jonoliveira12]

Originally posted by hvscarl:

Originally posted by Cacomistle:

I think they just need something small that helps them out in castle age or late feudal.

Simple, give Goths stone wall.

Not unique enough anymore? Come on, the Cumans get palisade wall too, but it's twice as strong. It bottlenecks Goths to go back to playing Black Forest and Arena. If Goths don't get supplies, then it should kick in early and keep increasing.

-25% Dark Age
-30% Feudal Age
-35% Castle Age
-40% Imperial Age

+10 pop stays

Plate Barding would be useful, but right now the infantry at Imperial are supposed to be the Goth's dominant trait. They need something that makes their civ bonuses make sense.

I'd like to point out that in AoC the Goth's were the only ones with 2 civ techs. Now everyone gets two. What's an Imperial tech that could help out their situation?

Stone wall would not solve the issue with Goths, they are an offensive civ.
If you really wanted to mke them go defensive, then you would have to give them Stone Wall, Guard Tower, and Arrow Slits, but the predictability and easy counter problem would remain.
Goths need something that is not Infantry to help them up, and FU Hussars would do just the trick. None of their Trash is FU, so having one unit would help a lot.

[Geojak]

Giving goths Khmer like hunting bonus instead of the extra carry capacity could work. They would need no mill anymore for deers. (dark age/ feudal buff)

Then switch the +10 pop to +10% and see if they need more buffs afterwards ( post imp buff)

Better focus on buffing Portuguese. The feitoria buff is a joke. No one is seriousky using these besides the meme arena fast imp strat that isn't even competitive.