Counter to Cumans?!

[BALTIC BALLER]

Why are they still in the game. Please someone tell me a solid way of countering them, that they can prove actually works. I love this game so much and I hate to see this happen to it.

[Bomjus]

if they feudal boom with a 2nd TC don't you beat them to the castle age and then just hit them with knights first?

also, aside from the 2nd TC what makes cumans better than tatars? if the only OP thing is steppe lancers would tatars be superior as their early herdable food bonus is more relevant to a fast castle strategy to get to steppe lancers?

[Cacomistle]

Nguyên văn bởi Bomjus:

if they feudal boom with a 2nd TC don't you beat them to the castle age and then just hit them with knights first?

also, aside from the 2nd TC what makes cumans better than tatars? if the only OP thing is steppe lancers would tatars be superior as their early herdable food bonus is more relevant to a fast castle strategy to get to steppe lancers?

Aside from the second tc, their steppe lancers are 10% faster.

Steppe lancers aren't that amazing without an economy behind them. They're really good because they destroy other melee units in numbers. If you just fast rush castle and get out like 5 steppe lancers, its easily killed by like knights.

And yes the opponent can rush castle and knight siege allin. But if you're playing cumans and your opponent fast castles, you basically know they're doing something like knight siege, and you can prepare for it. All the cumans player has to do is not die or lose half their villagers for a couple minutes (having a second tc protecting your wood/gold helps a lot with this), and they basically win.

It was regicide, and it was kipchaks not knights. But there was an example of what you're talking about in a showmatch t90 hosted between viper and tatoh. Viper just stalled, he sacrificed a town center, and then he had out steppe lancers and he ran tatoh over.

I'm just repeating basically what I've heard on hera's stream, but basically the point is there's a lot of easily walled maps. Which means there's a lot capability for the cumans player to stall, and if they survive 1 minute into castle age without taking significant damage you've lost with a castle age allin.

And of course, if you just blind rush to castle age with no wall, and they for example scout rush you, you probably just die. Its not like they have to go second tc every game.

From what I've seen, just tower rushing them seems to have a lot more success than castle allins. But all the pro players I watch avoid playing cumans, so its a pretty small sample size.

[🍮]

archer + halberd will eat lancers and you almost dont even need halberd because lancers have such low hp that they die to archers. alot of new players cant defend against cav rush and its not really because its lancers. its because they cant defend against cav rush. they would die to any cav. so if youre a cav civ fight them with cav. if your an archer civ use archers. if your civ has camels use them. infantry cant compete with them because theyre too slow and dont have a ranged attack. if youre using infantry you have to pressure them by attacking and not let them keep raiding you. i dont recommend infantry civ vs cuman because its a bad matchup unless its a small map.

[🍮]

Nguyên văn bởi Bomjus:

if they feudal boom with a 2nd TC don't you beat them to the castle age and then just hit them with knights first?

also, aside from the 2nd TC what makes cumans better than tatars? if the only OP thing is steppe lancers would tatars be superior as their early herdable food bonus is more relevant to a fast castle strategy to get to steppe lancers?

yes if they boom youll beat them to castle age and run them over. if they just place a second tc and dont boom though you wont. its hard to know if theyre booming unless youre scouting alot. cuman 2nd tc is a big deal in team games. its more of a problem than lancers. lancers really arent op. theyre just fast.

[Cacomistle]

Nguyên văn bởi raincloud:

Nguyên văn bởi Bomjus:

if they feudal boom with a 2nd TC don't you beat them to the castle age and then just hit them with knights first?

also, aside from the 2nd TC what makes cumans better than tatars? if the only OP thing is steppe lancers would tatars be superior as their early herdable food bonus is more relevant to a fast castle strategy to get to steppe lancers?

yes if they boom youll beat them to castle age and run them over. if they just place a second tc and dont boom though you wont. its hard to know if theyre booming unless youre scouting alot. cuman 2nd tc is a big deal in team games. its more of a problem than lancers. lancers really arent op. theyre just fast.

Well with cumans its that the whole package is good. Lancers by themselves are quite strong, but I don't know about op. I don't think they elevate tatars for example into being overpowered. But I think they're kind of abusive in that they beat a lot of stuff you would think should counter them if the lancer player micros properly (namely camels and pikemen), and while archers can beat them its not like they're a hard counter. Like if they were a castle unit, I don't think we would be discussing whether they're overpowered. But they come from a stables and can hit before an opponent can get both crossbows and pikemen, or archers in large enough numbers to be cost effective.

Its hard to say. We don't know what people would say about them if cumans weren't already powerful in other ways. And the second tc I think at least is the larger problem making cumans powerful.

Also I don't think beating cumans to castle automatically means you'll run them over. You still have to throw down a siege workshop, get out a number of knights, and if you don't harm their economy they'll get castle and steppe lancers out before you siege down both of their tcs. And if you only kill 1 tc without crushing their eco you lose. The research takes 2 minutes and 20 seconds and if they see you're castle age allin on them they're gonna click up , so realistically you're looking at about 2:20 to cripple them which isn't that long of a time. Saying beating them to castle means you overrun them is a drastic oversimplification.

[🍮]

if they double tc in feudal and are booming youll beat them to castle by 5min and thats enough time to send a raiding party and kill lots of their villagers or deny them access to wood and gold before they can counter your castle age units. double feudal tc is not op in 1v1. its only op in team games because its a different situation when they have a partner or more to help them and all they need to do is wall and boom for a while to get an eco advantage. 2:20 is not accurate if theyre booming. if you dont believe me theres a video of a guy who tested it on youtube and it takes 5min more to castle if you double feudal boom. to be clear booming is not the same thing as simply placing another tc. it means your training villagers from both tcs.

[RitualistEssence]

For taking down cav archer civs I'd try Vietnamese with their unique archer that has alot of pierce armor so they kill Kipchaks, Vietnamese defeated the Mongols big time in history.
Saracens also should work as those Mamelukes have anti cavalry ranged throwing knives, they were the ones who in history halted the Mongols from taking over the world.
Kinda fitting they reflect that in the game by making Saracens and Vietnamese have strengths vs Cav archer civs.

Japanese fast attacking Halberdiers and even Samurai might work with their bonus vs unique units, they too halted the Mongols in history.

Aztecs get halberdiers with highest attack rating from unique tech that gives infantry +4 attack.

Maybe the Indians? powerful imperial camels that can rip thru cav archers fast.

[Cacomistle]

Nguyên văn bởi raincloud:

if they double tc in feudal and are booming youll beat them to castle by 5min and thats enough time to send a raiding party and kill lots of their villagers or deny them access to wood and gold before they can counter your castle age units. double feudal tc is not op in 1v1. its only op in team games because its a different situation when they have a partner or more to help them and all they need to do is wall and boom for a while to get an eco advantage. 2:20 is not accurate if theyre booming. if you dont believe me theres a video of a guy who tested it on youtube and it takes 5min more to castle if you double feudal boom. to be clear booming is not the same thing as simply placing another tc. it means your training villagers from both tcs.

I'm assuming your opponent isn't a bot. If they see you doing some castle age allin, they're probably not going to continue mindlessly booming. They'll cut a few vills and get to castle a little bit earlier. If you're 1 tc and they're 1.5 tc, their eco is still far superior.

I'd expect something like this. https://www.twitch.tv/videos/513567239. The game I'm talking about is at about 1:40:00. The timings are a bit different because of the map and game mode, but it shouldn't really affect the relative timing. Tatoh goes up to castle age at about 10:40 (which viper was very likely not expecting in a cumans mirror, and since the bases are walled off automatically he probably didn't scout this). So viper about a minute later clicks up to castle, and arrives at around 14:40. So it takes a full 4 minutes. And in these 4 minutes, viper loses one of his tcs. Then he hits castle, and easily cleans the push up.

Depending on the skill level of the players, that situation could probably go either way. But you have to keep in mind tatoh is already walled, which prevents viper from scouting him earlier than that, and means he can blind fast castle. And because he has a castle at the start, he already has a unit producing structure and doesn't need to spend the wood on say a stables. Ofc viper is also already walled with stone walls, and has a castle but its not like it bought him that much time and I think he would have been perfectly fine without the castle.

Basically, I think the castle allin is a way that you can turn it into a skill based matchup rather than them just having more money and getting the free win. It does not give you the free win, and if you do it blindly could lead to sort of build order losses if you happen upon a cuman player who feudal rushes you and you don't scout it. The castle rush not being auto win seems a lot more likely to me than saying Tatoh ♥♥♥♥♥♥ it up and would have auto won doing it different.

At lower levels though, people very likely won't deal with it as calmly as viper did. They'd probably panic and lose everything trying to defend the first tc. Or cut villager production altogether and fall behind in eco. That push would almost certainly kill anyone out of the top 100-200 players, but how many people in this forum could execute it even half as well as Tatoh did.

[🍮]

have you seen a website anywhere to download unmodded DE replays? aoezone for example i only see wololo mod games and voobly games.

[Lord Commander]

I thought about this yesterday after loosing to Cumans twice, i think Italian should work, didn't have time to try it, but the Genoese Xbows can melt any mounted unit, 20vs20, they win with 8 xbows left vs lancers and 11 left vs Kiptchak.
I was thinking if Cumans go for the feudal mini boom, i'll just fast castle into Gen Xbows, and push with a mangonel.

[grraf]

Well easy way is civ countering them: byzantines and berbers for example... but yeah generally a normal vanilla civ without some heavy duty eco/military bonus is without a doubt with a foot in the grave as soon as they are pitted against cumans

[Cacomistle]

Nguyên văn bởi Lord Commander:

I thought about this yesterday after loosing to Cumans twice, i think Italian should work, didn't have time to try it, but the Genoese Xbows can melt any mounted unit, 20vs20, they win with 8 xbows left vs lancers and 11 left vs Kiptchak.
I was thinking if Cumans go for the feudal mini boom, i'll just fast castle into Gen Xbows, and push with a mangonel.

On water maps for sure, but cumans aren't op on water maps. On land maps, you're relying entirely on the strength of geonese crossbowmen, when they'll just throw down a siege workshop while they advance and go skirm mangonel.

And your only bonus at all to help you is the advancing to next age costs less. I think you're better off just going a civ with an eco bonus, because tbh cumans could even just play a regular feudal and they'd win cause of the cav speed bonus, the fact they can at least throw down their tc while advancing, and if you blind fast castle they have a feudal siege workshop which means they can also siege down your tc.

[TheDiaper]

You just cant really counter them, they are just that OP.
Basically all the pros said cumans need a nerf; Daut once said picking Cumans is like cheating.

[Hartmann]

Can't rush them. Isn't lethal enough. I killed 8 vills with 6 scouts, towered some of his res, delayed the tc and still fell behind. If cumans get a map where they can secure 2 of their 3 res and you're both equally skilled it's a direct loss, only hope to possibly counter them is to go ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ on towers and MAA and hopefully destroy the 2nd tc altogether 11

[JoshSA]

Nguyên văn bởi Hartmann:

Can't rush them. Isn't lethal enough. I killed 8 vills with 6 scouts, towered some of his res, delayed the tc and still fell behind. If cumans get a map where they can secure 2 of their 3 res and you're both equally skilled it's a direct loss, only hope to possibly counter them is to go ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ on towers and MAA and hopefully destroy the 2nd tc altogether 11

Damn that sounds intense, I really thought rushing was the answer. I generally play Cumans on Scandinavia because the opponent either picks Cumans or Lithuanians. Which is super annoying, so a counter to Cumans is playing as the Cumans 11