Konnik seems just a weaker Boyar

[✝ Gamlingwine]

First of all let me say I don't wanna make a point. Show me if I'm wrong, and if I don't get something here...
Due to the recent nerf the Konniks got (-10 HP), they now feel like weaker Boyars and nothing much.

The cost is about the same, with the Boyar just being a bit more expensive:

Boyar - 50 f, 80 g, 15 secs
Konnik - 60 f, 70 g, 19 secs

The stats are very similar, but the Konnik is evidently weaker:

Boyar - 130 HP, 14 atk, 6 armor, 2 pierce armor, 1,4 speed
Konnik - 120/50 HP, 14/13 atk, 2/0 armor, 2/1 pierce armor, 1,35/0,9 speed
(after the / I put the dismounted stats)

I did some unit testing and they now lose to Boyars. Versus archers, Konniks are inferior because they have less HP, and have decreased stats once dismounted and have less HP thanwhen mounted... basically, it seems to me Konniks are weaker to Boyars in melee and at range, so what is their point?
Admittely, Konniks are superior against the Halbs, but what's the point of sending Konniks against the traashy spear-line units?
Supposedly, they are suitable for mixed armies so that in the confusion of battle they perform better than regular cavalry?

EDIT: They also got their attack speed severely lowered, that explains why they seemed so much weaker in testing.

[Jackbrick]

The ability to die and come back into the fight as infantry unit some tanky elements to to it. And adds some tricky elements to counter. Plus, being able to be made from cheap castles is nice. Where is a Boyar can only be made from castle.

[✝ Gamlingwine]

Originally posted by Lrrr:

The ability to die and come back into the fight as infantry unit some tanky elements to to it. And adds some tricky elephants to counter. Plus, being able to be made from cheap castles is nice. Where is a Boyar can only be made from castle.

what do you mean with the elephants thing? And BTW, they have overall few HP compared to other heavy cav units so their tankiness isn't that impressive.

[Jackbrick]

I meant elements. Cavalier upgrade combined with Paladin upgrade is costly. You get something better than a cavalier, that can turn into an infantry unit. Plus, it's not like be only making Konniks. Mixing in some with could a nice combo. Plus, +5 armor infantry upgrade and 50% faster blacksmiths.

[✝ Gamlingwine]

Originally posted by Lrrr:

I meant elements. Cavalier upgrade combined with Paladin upgrade is costly. You get something better than a cavalier, that can turn into an infantry unit. Plus, it's not like be only making Konniks. Mixing in some with could a nice combo. Plus, +5 armor infantry upgrade and 50% faster blacksmiths.

well ok, but when turned infantry it can't go back to being cavalry. Stat wise, it's also much worse than the Bulgarian militia line. Considerably worse than avg champions. They have a second life ok, but it's a weak one. It felt ok earlier with the fast attack speed, but now... Feels meh.

[✝ Gamlingwine]

Originally posted by Lrrr:

I meant elements. Cavalier upgrade combined with Paladin upgrade is costly. You get something better than a cavalier, that can turn into an infantry unit. Plus, it's not like be only making Konniks. Mixing in some with could a nice combo. Plus, +5 armor infantry upgrade and 50% faster blacksmiths.

and yes their infantry now is really good, but their UU feels like a waste. Looks to me that the Paladin is a better way to go for overall superior sustainability. Or, go with light cavalry which still has very good attack speed due to Stirrups.

[PeteSkTemplar]

Konniks should not be on par with Boyars for they have better archery support avaliable, I still wonder shy Slavs do not have bracers but Bulgarians got it so some cons and pros on both sides. Right now I miss most for Bulgarians - faith.

[✝ Gamlingwine]

Originally posted by PeteSKTemplar:

Konniks should not be on par with Boyars for they have better archery support avaliable, I still wonder shy Slavs do not have bracers but Bulgarians got it so some cons and pros on both sides. Right now I miss most for Bulgarians - faith.

hmm. Ranged support for both civs is probably on par: slavs get stronger siege and heavy scorpion is among the most useful ranged units in the late game. Also, bulgarians have terrible foot archers, forcing them to rely on HCAs which are much costlier and perform differently to foot archers.

I like Slavs too though, so I feel you when you lament certain weaknesses they have. My main grudge with the slavs is that I like using actual bow units for aesthetic reasons and Scorpions are their best ranged unit while foot and horse archers are mediocre. So since I don't wanna use scorpions I discarded the slavs.
I prefer orthodox civs so the Bulgarians came happily into my "life".