Zone of Control

[Joe]

Does the enemy follow the same zone of control rules as the player? Playing through Barbarossa and can't work out why they can march past my troops.

[pendantry]

Have to admit, but I haven't played for a while, so I'm not certain of the terminology.

I do remember encountering the same issue, and, if memory serves, the reason that the enemy could trundle through hexes that I had thought were in my units' ZoCs was that my units were 'under strength' (I think there's a different term for that, though), and so they had no ZoC beyond their own hex. Might that be it?

[TheLastSterling]

Zoc does apply to the enemy. zoc affects hexes you control. It's just that the enemy doesn't usually pass by your controlled hexes.

[whisper]

I once thought the enemy was breaking ZOC rules but I had forgotten that units can only exert ZOC on their own side of the frontier.

[Daniel_efc]

Originally posted by whisper:

I once thought the enemy was breaking ZOC rules but I had forgotten that units can only exert ZOC on their own side of the frontier.

Most games in the genre work slightly differently than ours in this regard, and so this is a very common misunderstanding. It's another case of our beloved abstractions at work :D

If anyone is interested, this is the philosophy behind the system:

Divisions don't just move around in a blob. Large military units operate smaller elements that essentially screen the mass (or at least they _should_). So instead of adding more complexity by having a zillion smaller scale units, this system represents these smaller sub units in the form of a ZoC. This is the same as in most wargames. However we have a twist in UoC2: moving *into* a ZoC and getting "stuck" represents defeating enemy sub units --> Now the road is clear and other forces can exploit the gap and move freely.

(Our AI never cheats - it simply can't. It has the exactly the same tools and views at its disposal as a player.)

[Joe]

Originally posted by Daniel_efc:

Originally posted by whisper:

I once thought the enemy was breaking ZOC rules but I had forgotten that units can only exert ZOC on their own side of the frontier.

Most games in the genre work slightly differently than ours in this regard, and so this is a very common misunderstanding. It's another case of our beloved abstractions at work :D

If anyone is interested, this is the philosophy behind the system:

Divisions don't just move around in a blob. Large military units operate smaller elements that essentially screen the mass (or at least they _should_). So instead of adding more complexity by having a zillion smaller scale units, this system represents these smaller sub units in the form of a ZoC. This is the same as in most wargames. However we have a twist in UoC2: moving *into* a ZoC and getting "stuck" represents defeating enemy sub units --> Now the road is clear and other forces can exploit the gap and move freely.

(Our AI never cheats - it simply can't. It has the exactly the same tools and views at its disposal as a player.)

Just for clarity, are you agreeing with whisper, that you cannot exert zone of control in enemy terrain? If thats the case, then yes, this is what I was trying to do.

[Daniel_efc]

Originally posted by Joe:

Just for clarity, are you agreeing with whisper, that you cannot exert zone of control in enemy terrain? If thats the case, then yes, this is what I was trying to do.

Yes, ZoCs are only exerted into friendly territory.

[znds]

Originally posted by Daniel_efc:

(Our AI never cheats - it simply can't. It has the exactly the same tools and views at its disposal as a player.)

OK, so can you please explain the following phenomenon? I put two full strength infantry units next to each other - one hex apart. So it seems that both exert zone of control in this hex. So it seems that a single enemy unit cannot pass through the hex that separates my units. But this is not true. I did that in Normandy and enemy panzer just slipped through the hex between my two units - and it should have been stuck in my zone of control. The same happened in Barbarossa - enemy cavalry slipped straight between my two full strength infantry units. Please explain this mechanism because it contradicts the manual and tutorial. I know that the first enemy unit gets stuck in my zone of control and a second enemy unit can pass through. However, the first enemy unit simply moves through my zone of control.

[FeroKapo]

Originally posted by znds:

Originally posted by Daniel_efc:

(Our AI never cheats - it simply can't. It has the exactly the same tools and views at its disposal as a player.)

OK, so can you please explain the following phenomenon? I put two full strength infantry units next to each other - one hex apart. So it seems that both exert zone of control in this hex. So it seems that a single enemy unit cannot pass through the hex that separates my units. But this is not true. I did that in Normandy and enemy panzer just slipped through the hex between my two units - and it should have been stuck in my zone of control. The same happened in Barbarossa - enemy cavalry slipped straight between my two full strength infantry units. Please explain this mechanism because it contradicts the manual and tutorial. I know that the first enemy unit gets stuck in my zone of control and a second enemy unit can pass through. However, the first enemy unit simply moves through my zone of control.

I have observed the same behavior once or twice. I have checked everything I could, I have no explanation how the enemy unit could slip past my units. Is there maybe some (undocumented) special ability of some units to ignore ZoC? The enemy was not using any recon specialists for a forced recon action or anything, instead the enemy infantry (or was it cavalry? can't remember) was acting very much in isolation (which additionally I complained about in another thread, because even if there would have been a "legal" way to do this attack, it is a strategic suicide mission, which seems highly unrealistic from an isolated, regular unit out of range of its own HQ).

[TheLastSterling]

As Daniel has stated before, that scenario cannot happen. Most likely is that you did not own the hex in between meaning you did not have zoc.

[znds]

Originally posted by TheLastSterling:

As Daniel has stated before, that scenario cannot happen. Most likely is that you did not own the hex in between meaning you did not have zoc.

How can one hex between my two units not be owned by me if it is far behind the front line? How can I recognise that I "own" the hex? Where can I check this?
Imagine this situation: I repelled all Germans from their positions (they fell back by a few hexes) and now Imoved forward and I'm trying to set up a defensive position - so I specifically place a few units one hex apart to protect my supply lines. And then, magically, a German Panther move along rough terrain about 2-3 hexes towards my full-strength units, passes through them, and moves a few hexes farther. How can it be possible that neither of my units which have just advanced forward exert zone of control? Where is the detailed explanation of "owning" hexes? The tutorial says that every full-strength unit standing "alone" exerts a zone of control.

[TheLastSterling]

Originally posted by znds:

I moved forward and I'm trying to set up a defensive position

How can it be possible that neither of my units which have just advanced forward.

Which is it? If you can't remember if you moved or not, you might be missing details why it happened.


"Units that are not weak exert a zone of control (ZOC) into neighboring hexes owned by that unit’s own side. ." You cannot exert control in enemy hexes.

There no complex thing about seeing your ZOC, if it's on your side of the frontline, it's your hex, and you can exert ZOC in them .

Just because you have troops on either side of a hex doesn't mean you automatically own it. That's the reason for the recon specialist, it does allow for exertion of control in the hexes around your unit when it moves and captures the hex surrounding them.

Like I said before, mostly like you moved your units forward, but left the hexes in between still in enemy control since normally units don't capture the hexes around them, meaning you do no exert ZOC which allowed them to pass.

[znds]

Originally posted by TheLastSterling:

Originally posted by znds:

I moved forward and I'm trying to set up a defensive position

How can it be possible that neither of my units which have just advanced forward.

Which is it? If you can't remember if you moved or not, you might be missing details why it happened.


"Units that are not weak exert a zone of control (ZOC) into neighboring hexes owned by that unit’s own side. ." You cannot exert control in enemy hexes.

There no complex thing about seeing your ZOC, if it's on your side of the frontline, it's your hex, and you can exert ZOC in them .

Just because you have troops on either side of a hex doesn't mean you automatically own it. That's the reason for the recon specialist, it does allow for exertion of control in the hexes around your unit when it moves and captures the hex surrounding them.

Like I said before, mostly like you moved your units forward, but left the hexes in between still in enemy control since normally units don't capture the hexes around them, meaning you do no exert ZOC which allowed them to pass.

Once again: I repelled the Germans and moved my units forward. I conquered all the terrain. Everything was mine. Then I specifically placed my units one hex apart on my area. Which means that initially I had 4 units standing next to each other in a row and then I chose to move two of them so that each unit is one hex apart. So I'm 100% sure that every hex was mine because 1 turn before they were mine because they were occupied by my own units. The hex which was occupied by my unit a turn ago, and when no enemy unit is near, is mine, right? There was no other enemy unit around - only a Panther 3 or 4 hexes away. And that Panther slipped between my two full-strength units, violating zones of control of both of them. The same happened in Barbarossa - my units advanced forward, captured terrain, repelled the enemy by 3-4 hexes, set up defensive positions one hex apart and still Russian cavalry moving from a distance of 3-4 hexes slippes through my full-strength units. And I can't explain that. The manual and the tutorial also can't explain that. Either a bug or the AI "cheats".

[EgoVermin]

"Once again: I repelled the Germans and moved my units forward. I conquered all the terrain. Everything was mine. Then I specifically placed my units one hex apart on my area. Which means that initially I had 4 units standing next to each other in a row and then I chose to move two of them so that each unit is one hex apart. So I'm 100% sure that every hex was mine because 1 turn before they were mine because they were occupied by my own units. The hex which was occupied by my unit a turn ago, and when no enemy unit is near, is mine, right? There was no other enemy unit around - only a Panther 3 or 4 hexes away. And that Panther slipped between my two full-strength units, violating zones of control of both of them. The same happened in Barbarossa - my units advanced forward, captured terrain, repelled the enemy by 3-4 hexes, set up defensive positions one hex apart and still Russian cavalry moving from a distance of 3-4 hexes slippes through my full-strength units. And I can't explain that. The manual and the tutorial also can't explain that. Either a bug or the AI "cheats"."

Firstly, the AI doesn't cheat. It cannot, the rules of the game don't allow it, as it is following the same rules you follow. It'd be like an AI trying to cheat at chess.
Secondly, if this is indeed a bug (which is not out of the question) then you would be the only person I've heard of experiencing this bug in the 2 and a half years of this game's release. Not impossible but your issues are more likely the result of one of the two following explanations:

1. You do not understand how your units exude Zone of Control. This is unlikely, as your quote seems to show such an understanding. Just in case you aren't aware, the dotted redline represents the frontline, separating your territory (which is lit up) and the enemy territory (which is lit up either 1 or 2 tiles away from your frontline (depending on your HQ's Intel level) and the rest of the tiles are in fog of war). You cannot exude Zone of Control into enemy territory, no matter what, and your units cannot exude Zone of Control into friendly territory if they are weak (i.e. they retreated this turn or have less than 3 active steps.)

2. You do not understand the effects of Zone of Control. You mention a couple of times that enemy units "slipped between" your own full-strength units. It's not clear what you mean by this but I will try to exposit; if the tile between your full-strength units is indeed in your territory (and therefore you have ZoC over it), and an enemy unit moves into that tile within your territory and then immediately moves into any other tile then that would be a bug.
However, if the enemy unit moved into such a tile and did not move for the rest of the turn then that means Zone of Control is working as intended. To explain, when a unit enters an enemy unit's ZoC then it loses all base movement and its action point is locked, preventing extended movement. There is nothing in the tutorial or the manual that says a unit cannot enter a tile within enemy ZoC to begin with (except with extended movement). Entering enemy ZoC is vital in this game as it allows your troops to exploit gaps in the enemy line... and as the enemy plays by the same rules, they can do the same to you.
Furthermore, while that would 'freeze' a single enemy unit, because it entered your territory it has now seized the tile in question, turning it into enemy territory. If the enemy has sufficient reinforcements then further units can now exploit the opening (although other ZoCs could 'freeze' further units) and enter the parts of your territory that do not have Zone of Control, allowing them to move freely.

The second explanation is the more likely as you say "my units advanced forward... set up defensive positions one hex apart and still Russian cavalry moving from a distance of 3-4 hexes slippes through my full-strength units." When each tile on the battlefield represents approximately a dozen square kilometres, leaving gaps in the line under the idea of 'the enemy can't/won't enter this empty tile because I have nearby units' is crazy - an empty tile is an empty tile, no matter whose territory it is located in or whether there are allied or enemy units in adjacent tiles.

I hope one of the two above explanations solves your problems. I would recommend using History mode to view a replay of your battle and see if you did really have ZoC, if you mistook one enemy for several or if you did not understand the effects of Zone of Control. If not, then it must be a bug and I would report it on the official forums (footage of this happening would be very useful).

[znds]

Originally posted by EgoVermin:

Firstly, the AI doesn't cheat. It cannot, the rules of the game don't allow it, as it is following the same rules you follow. It'd be like an AI trying to cheat at chess.

By "cheat" I mean that AI units have different capabilities than the player's units. I.e. the player's unit always stop in the AI's ZOC but AI units are able to move through the player's units because the developers so designed but didn't bother to tell us.

Originally posted by EgoVermin:

Secondly, if this is indeed a bug (which is not out of the question) then you would be the only person I've heard of experiencing this bug in the 2 and a half years of this game's release. Not impossible but your issues are more likely the result of one of the two following explanations:

FeroKapo in this thread also mentioned this weird behaviour :)

Originally posted by EgoVermin:

1. You do not understand how your units exude Zone of Control. This is unlikely, as your quote seems to show such an understanding. Just in case you aren't aware, the dotted redline represents the frontline, separating your territory (which is lit up) and the enemy territory (which is lit up either 1 or 2 tiles away from your frontline (depending on your HQ's Intel level) and the rest of the tiles are in fog of war). You cannot exude Zone of Control into enemy territory, no matter what, and your units cannot exude Zone of Control into friendly territory if they are weak (i.e. they retreated this turn or have less than 3 active steps.)

Yep, I've already written this in my posts.

Originally posted by EgoVermin:

2. You do not understand the effects of Zone of Control. You mention a couple of times that enemy units "slipped between" your own full-strength units. It's not clear what you mean by this but I will try to exposit; if the tile between your full-strength units is indeed in your territory (and therefore you have ZoC over it), and an enemy unit moves into that tile within your territory and then immediately moves into any other tile then that would be a bug.
However, if the enemy unit moved into such a tile and did not move for the rest of the turn then that means Zone of Control is working as intended. To explain, when a unit enters an enemy unit's ZoC then it loses all base movement and its action point is locked, preventing extended movement. There is nothing in the tutorial or the manual that says a unit cannot enter a tile within enemy ZoC to begin with (except with extended movement). Entering enemy ZoC is vital in this game as it allows your troops to exploit gaps in the enemy line... and as the enemy plays by the same rules, they can do the same to you.
Furthermore, while that would 'freeze' a single enemy unit, because it entered your territory it has now seized the tile in question, turning it into enemy territory. If the enemy has sufficient reinforcements then further units can now exploit the opening (although other ZoCs could 'freeze' further units) and enter the parts of your territory that do not have Zone of Control, allowing them to move freely.

As I've written before: the enemy Panther entered the ZOC of my two full-strength units and passed through them in the same turn. And as you've written, the Panther should have stopped there. It was a single enemy unit.

Originally posted by EgoVermin:

The second explanation is the more likely as you say "my units advanced forward... set up defensive positions one hex apart and still Russian cavalry moving from a distance of 3-4 hexes slippes through my full-strength units." When each tile on the battlefield represents approximately a dozen square kilometres, leaving gaps in the line under the idea of 'the enemy can't/won't enter this empty tile because I have nearby units' is crazy - an empty tile is an empty tile, no matter whose territory it is located in or whether there are allied or enemy units in adjacent tiles.

But all my full-strength units exert Zone of Control - therefore no enemy unit should be able to bypass my units, because, as you've written, a unit stops when entering an enemy Zone of Control. Meanwhile, an enemy Panther (and cavalry in a different scenario) did not stop in my ZOC but moved farther in the same turn.

Originally posted by EgoVermin:

I hope one of the two above explanations solves your problems. I would recommend using History mode to view a replay of your battle and see if you did really have ZoC, if you mistook one enemy for several or if you did not understand the effects of Zone of Control. If not, then it must be a bug and I would report it on the official forums (footage of this happening would be very useful).

Either a bug or an intended special capability of AI units, of which the player is not aware. Because
1) ZOC surrounds every unit, except on the other side of rivers (my units were in a normal terrain, no river)
2) a unit always stops in an enemy's ZOC when the enemy unit is full-strength (my units were full-strength)
3) the AI unit entered my ZOC but did not stop - moved farther; it was a single AI unit

Or maybe when two units "share" a Zone of Control (i.e. the same hex is in the ZOC of two units), these two ZOCs cancel each other out for some reason, which is not mentioned in the manual.

If this happens again, I'll make screenshots :) Maybe I'll try to set such a situation up and check if this happens again.

[TheLastSterling]

At this point I'm assuming you're just miss remembering the exact detail of things because it's not possible for this to happening at all or you just don't understand what ZOC is. The AI cannot cheat, it follows the same rules as the player; this has been true since the first game.

Unless you post screenshots, I'm just going to assume you don't understand the game mechanics as well as you think you do.