Is Blitzkrieg harder than the VitW campaign?

[Agent]

I played the Victory in the West campaign on Classic and eventually managed to get gold trophies for every battle, including the alt-history ones (NOT on my first couple of attempts obviously). But I'm only on the second battle of the Blitzkrieg campaign (Polish Plain) and I'm having a bear of a time grabbing all objs and all secondary objs within the time limts. Sometimes an ill-timed weather front moves in, sometimes one dumb enemy with 1 step left manages to cut my entire supply line, and sometimes I just run into a full strength enemy unit fortified on one of the turn 8 secondary objectives with no particular way to deal with that. I would have though the first couple of battles would be the easiest, so this bodes poorly for future battles.

So my question is whether the Blitzkrieg campaign is harder than the Western campaign or did I just get much suckier at the game in the last few months of not playing? Either seems possible. I guess the answer doesn't really matter, but I'd like to calibrate my expectations as to whether I'll be able to get gold trophies on Classic all the way through like originally.

[Haako]

Yes, it is harder because all objectives are more historically tied and your tactics have to focus on pincer moves. There are more units on the map, even though you have better units. And some scenarios have a "must move" if you want to get objective on time - like in second Norway mission, where you have to cut enemy supplies with 1-step paratroopers.

Also, base campaign is a bit easier, because is a longer one. You can exp your units, upgrade all HQ, have a lot prestige and enemy is almost always on defense.

Yep, bad weather in area before youc objective can burn evry plan. As to assulting forts, you should save Stuka cards. Keep exp on units that will be in next battles, vet and elite panzer units are a big thing with every scenario.

[Gerfreckle]

Yes, this expansion is significantly harder, because unlike in the base game campaign you're going up against enemies at the peak of their strength in strong defensive positions across very expansive maps. Numbers are about even, and sometimes you're at a disadvantage. This is in contrast to the base game campaign where you usually outnumbered the enemy and had advantages in supplies and air/naval support. Historically speaking, the German victories in this part of the war were due almost exclusively to superior tactics, not numbers or any other advantage. This means the player has to get creative with their own tactics too, and use every turn very carefully.

[TheLastSterling]

Originally posted by Gerfreckle:

Yes, this expansion is significantly harder, because unlike in the base game campaign you're going up against enemies at the peak of their strength in strong defensive positions across very expansive maps. Numbers are about even, and sometimes you're at a disadvantage. This is in contrast to the base game campaign where you usually outnumbered the enemy and had advantages in supplies and air/naval support. Historically speaking, the German victories in this part of the war were due almost exclusively to superior tactics, not numbers or any other advantage. This means the player has to get creative with their own tactics too, and use every turn very carefully.

Don't forget the incompetency of the Allies. The French dissuaded the use of radios leading to poor coordination and reaction.

[Agent]

Thanks guys, I'll just play it all the way through and take regular victories, and then go back and get gold later rather than what I did in the base game!

[William H. Harrison]

I've played both on classic and I'd say they're about the same. I think most people here are misrepresenting whats difficult about the allies campaign, where the main challenge is that you often have very unforgiving time constraints to take cities that have fortified units in them. Rhein et danube and Bavaria stands out in my mind as missions that come late in the game and are much more difficult than any of the blitzkrieg missions. I found blitz to be most difficult early on in the Polish missions due to having an undeveloped army, and quite easy in later missions. Blitz in general seemed to have more forgiving time constraints. I often finished scenarios with 2 or 3 turns to spare, which would never happen in the allies campaign.

[Agent]

Well I'm having a terribly hard time trying to get all objs completed on time in the second and third Polish scenarios, and that's not something that ever happened in the Victory in the West campaign. I suppose that's why you said it's most difficult early in the Polish missions.

Like taking Lublin by turn 4 in the Polish Plain scenario. Obviously that means running full out with an armored or mechanized unit straight at it. But the Germans blow up the bridge just southwest of Lublin almost every time on turn 2 or 3. Which means going via the bridge northwest of Lublin... and there's almost always enemy units blocking that path.

Yes, they once didn't blow up the bridge (dunno why) and once or twice there weren't units blocking the other path (again, dunno why) but getting all objs on Classic in these mission seems almost like pure trial and error where I'm moving units one hex differently every time I make an attempt in the hope that the AI responds slightly differently. Maybe if I'm one hex further back they won't blow up the bridge but the AI won't rush a unit to block. No? Ok, what if I'm one hex further forward, they'll blow up the bridge but maybe I can make it the other path even if a unit gets there... no? Ok, what if I...

Any tips for getting all the objs on time on Classic in the second two Polish scenarios? Doing so in the very first scenario wasn't too bad. I'm sure I could do it by dropping all my first conference prestige on flying artillery and fallschirmjaegers but that seems like a way to cripple myself in the long run since I wouldn't be able to upgrade the HQs.

[William H. Harrison]

imo polish plain is the hardest scenario in the DLC by far. Getting all primary objectives on time is difficult but doable, but getting all bonus objectives too makes it really difficult. So, unless you're a perfectionist it might be more enjoyable to do well in the scenario, but not perfect, and come back to it later on a second playthrough.

- For lublin, remember you can use mouse wheel to extend units move range. You can use the infantry to create a path through the zone of control of the division in katowice on turn one for your mobile divisions. Make sure you cut off the Krakow HQ on turn one, this is possible if 5 PzD has a recon specialist. You can use the precision bombing strike on the bridge south of Warsaw to prevent Warsaw HQ from being in range. All of this depends a bit on where the enemy HQ's move around, so use the precision bombing strike as needed. Remember they have to be in range to demolish the bridge, and you can click on them to see their range. If the Germania motorized unit goes full speed each turn you should get there in time. Once you reach the objective you can then leave, you don't need to hold it, so feel free to go far out of supply to get it.

- Don't take fights with your mobile units unless the odds are great and it's not slowing you down. let out of supply kill the polish divisions for you

- Don't be afraid of counterattacks, none of the Polish divisions have the offensive power to be a threat to your units. You'd have to have a unit completely surrounded for it to be in danger.

- The leichte divisions suck, worse even than infantry divisions. Don't use them to attack ever, all they can do is hold ground and maybe mop up weak units when the odds are good. You absolutely should not be relying on them.

- Army set up is hugely important in this mission. You really need engineers for this scenario, i'd say at least 2. One to handle the north lodz and warsaw direction, and one to handle the south krakow and radom direction. Do not regular attack with these divisions you cannot risk losing the engineers, you should only be set piece attacking with them. For that you need engineers + artillery. If you can't afford the specialists then play the other scenrios in the conference first and save up prestige for this mission. If you didn't save enough prestige then your screwed, restart the campaign and make sure you save enough for specialists in this mission, maybe 150ish prestige minimum. You should give as many panzer divisions as you can recon and light tanks. Finally, spend whatever you have left on artillery for regular infantry. You're going to want to clear the railway north of katowice quickly, so give it to the divisions there. Use set piece attack to reduce the Pole's entrenchment.

- I have never seen the poles have a unit in the Bzura objective tile on turn 3, but I have seen them counter attack it, so make sure a strong unit is guarding it, preferably one of the motorized divisions.

- If you push fast enough and get lucky, you can take warsaw on turn 4 since there won't be a division in the city. Otherwise, just take your time with warsaw, you don't need it till turn 8.

- Radom is tricky, make sure you move your southern engineer division closer every turn and you should be able to set piece attack and take it in time. Don't forget to keep up with your HQ.

- Krakow is usually not a problem because they don't have time to entrench.

- I honestly don't have a good strategy for the south objectives przemsyl and lwow, you kinda just have to keep pushing every turn with the mountain divisions and hope you get lucky. I give these objectives priority for the air support because there's not really a lot you can do to help otherwise. These two objectives are the reason this scenario is so hard in my opinion. If you cause the cities to be ruined you're basically screwed.

[Agent]

I actually was doing much of that... with the exception that it didn't occur to me to use the precision airstrike to screw with enemy HQs. I was looking for ways to interdict reinforcements or supply, and while you can do that occasionally it's not good enough. I think I waste that precision strike most of the time, and you can't afford waste in this scenario. So concentrating on using it more effectively and making sure to pay attention to the enemy HQ range is my next step, thanks for the handy tip.

As you say, taking the Bzura objective on turn 3 is usually not a problem... but occasionally holding it can be. I once had a full-strength panzer division (a 4/3 one, not the 2/2 crappies) get wiped on turn 3 by a polish counter attack there. They attacked it at least 4 times in one turn, pushing it off the objective and reducing it to one suppressed step. So that was fun.

That incident aside I agree the northern objectives are usually not a big problem, even Warsaw. I just see no particularly consistent way to get all the southern secondary objectives. I do push with the mountain divisions but maintain their supply, even intermittently to prevent disbandment, is a big problem.

I keep deciding to take your advice and accept a decent but not perfect victory here and every time I get sucked back in to giving it one more try! This time I will accept the result, I swear...

[Agent]

So apparently a little nudge about the airstrike/HQ interactions was all I needed. On the very first attempt after your post, this was the result:

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2306033579

Got all the secondaries in time including Lwow, and will get all the primaries on time save unfortunately Przemysl which will be a turn late because I ruined it with airstrikes trying to suppress the entrenched defender. But I absolutely see how I could play more efficiently in the southern bit and cut its supply a turn earlier, which would probably allow me to assault the city directly instead of being forced to use airstrikes. It does seem like a tough decision whether to divert forces to Lwow to try to get a perfect result or keep them all at Przemysel to assure you take the city on time. Doing both is tough.

So thanks, it's amazing how one change makes such a difference.

For what its worth, the biggest thing I did differently was cut off the Krakow HQ with the precision strike on turn 1. With that bridge blown and the panzer unit + recon cutting off the road access, the Krakow HQ was both out of supply (and so couldnt repair the bridge) and couldn't retreat, nor could any of the units south of Krakow move into the city to defend it, so I just walked into Krakow on turn 2 and wiped out the HQ. For whatever reason until you said something I never really concentrated on the HQs and just kind of considered them something to target if I could but not a priority.

[William H. Harrison]

Glad to hear I could help. Yeah i swear its those two southern most objectives that got me every time. If I got lucky with one i'd be unlucky with the other.

My idea, which I haven't tried yet, is that you can use the new reoganize step feature of the german HQ's to move an engineer and artillery specialist from a unit at radom to the south. Its a pretty powerful ability that I never used first play though, but you can instantly move a specialist from one unit to another, if they're both in HQ range. I can't remember if it suppresses the specialist, but if it doesn't it could be insanely good since you could move an engineer where you need it and set piece all on the same turn. I don't know if the HQ has enough range in the scenario to reach or if it can even move in range fast enough, since the 3 tile movement is so slow.

Thinking about it in retrospect, I think the way to go might be max range upgrades on HG A and save all the rest of the prestige from the conference. You can save all the prestige from mission one, save the engineer to use in mission 2 and use the reorganize to move it around, and then have a bunch saved up for polish plain. I don't think you need the second operations upgrade for either HQ, since that only gives suppressing fire and feint which aren't that helpful in these scenarios, and instead you save the 100 prestige.

Another possibility is if the paratrooper card shows up in the first conference it might be worth it, not sure how much it costs tho.

[Agent]

Tried it one more time with the stuff I learned on that near-perfect try.

Annnnd there it is:

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2307914368

Went well, weather played a slight factor but nothing like when it sometimes just blankets the objectives and makes it impossible. The key factors IMO are 1) isolate Krakow and its HQ on turn 1 (which is what you suggested which flipped a switch for me), 2) Position your HQ carefully and use it to swap around engineers if necessary. (I put 50 prestige into it at the conference to upgrade range on it TWICE rather than once), 3) swing those two armor guys south of Krakow around southwards rather than use them to clear the Krakow pocket. It takes 2 turns to move them around but after that they can charge the southern objectives.

Doing this it is straightforward to capture all but the two southernmost objectives on time, barring terrible screwjob weather or disasterous luck. Getting one of the two southern objs can likely be done without much luck but getting BOTH still means either using airstrikes to suppress an entrenched infantry in a city, which means cross your fingers and pray you don't rubble it, OR accepting completely unhinged losses on direct assaults which obviously is Not Recommended.

So basically I think with this strategy you get 90% of the way there without relying on luck and then you just hope for the best with your southern airstrikes on turns 7 or 8. But it's definitely doable.

[Agent]

I'm sure you know but the biggest problem by far is the enemy infantry double entrenched on Przemysl. I even cut his supply on turn 5 which would have meant supply suppression before turn 8, but he used the HQ to emergency supply it and completely surrounding it to prevent that is unlikely. So it's spray and pray with airstrikes unless somebody figures out a good tactic for transferring an engineer into range.

[William H. Harrison]

i actually came back to the scenario and now have a consistent strategy for the southern objectives. Like you say, its best to just move the two armored divisions south along the edge of the map, not fighting at all. Theres a paved road that is unguarded on the far edge of the map that you can follow with 4 Pzd which allows you to move the farthest. 4 Pzd can consistently reach the bridge south of przemysl on turn 4. this also means that on turn 5 you should be able to move into lwow unopposed, because the reinforcement unit there doesn't spawn until the allies take their turn 5. The mountain divisions can fight their way towards przemysl following the dirt road next to the paved one, which will allow you to position a supply hub as well. Przemysl should be cut off long enough that the unit is totally suppressed on turn 7.

[Agent]

Thanks! Yeah, I thought I might be able to get to Lwow before the reinforcement spawns but in this attempt 4 Pzd ended up literally one hex short, adjacent to the unguarded city. I was not thrilled when the cavalry unit spawned on it while my Panzers were on lunch break or something. But at least they weren't entrenched and so not too hard to dislodge. Likely I took an ill advised detour to finish off a unit or something which I should have ignored in favor of moving straight to Lwow.

If you say it's possible to cut off Przsemysl early enough I'll have to go back and look at it next time. I'm sure I'll play it again at some point and I'll make sure 4 Pzd doesn't take the scenic route and study how to get the mountain guy to Przemysl early enough to cut supply effectively. I think my guys get distracted too easily by killable units! In my defense this is historically accurate.

[Agent]

Originally posted by Haako:

And some scenarios have a "must move" if you want to get objective on time - like in second Norway mission, where you have to cut enemy supplies with 1-step paratroopers.

For what its worth, if I get what you're suggesting here I think something changed in a patch. My understanding is that people used to do a gamey thing where they moved their paratroopers one hex northwest onto a hill and the enemy garrison would abandon their position on a city and just move south to clear the hex you vacated, which would then let you move north to cut supply?

If you try doing that now the enemy garrison just KIAs your paratroopers before moving south. I assume it's possible for them to roll a 1 or something and only suppress you, but I tested it 3 times in a row and they KIAd the paratroopers every time.

That's good, just ignoring them and vacating the strong position in the city would be weird. It does make things rather more challenging though.