Controversial feeling about game design

[leskris]

I've changed my opinion about this game several times. At first, I found it completely bad because of all the micromanagement—health, stamina, mana, durability. But then, since there's nothing good to play on Steam right now, I returned to this game and somehow managed to love it despite all these mechanics making my experience less enjoyable. I finally beat all the bosses, but I feel very disappointed with the Sirocco questline and everything related to that place.

I've heard that the devs are planning to make Outward 2, and I even watched some early alpha footage. I really hope they listen to the players and make the second game less painful.

So, what’s wrong with the final part of the game?

1) Building placement management – I barely found space for the last building, spending 30 real-life minutes searching for a free spot.

2) Resource buying loop – Often, in order to construct several buildings, you need to buy resources even when you have enough money. This means starting a building, running 2–3 minutes to a vendor, returning, starting another building, and repeating the process.

3) Building process interruptions – Some buildings seem to have multiple phases, and every 7 days, I have to check if they are still under construction or if I need to manually press a button to continue.

4) Useless late-game rewards – I finished constructing all the buildings after completing 99% of the content, only to gain access to a new teacher and upgraded library enchantments. WTF? Why do I need these after finishing the game? The same applies to the main campaign—most enchantments become available only when you’ve completed the main quest because the mobs that drop key ingredients are stronger than those in the questline. It makes no sense. Some might argue that you can use the legacy chest to transfer enchanted items to a new playthrough, but you can beat most of the content without enchantments. Plus, reaching the legacy chest isn’t easy. This whole system feels disconnected from the game’s reality.

5) Late-game artifacts and gear – You get access to powerful gear only after beating the game. While it’s possible to grab some items by running past enemies, which I like as an option, it should be the exception rather than the norm. Here, it's the norm—most powerful items are only accessible when you no longer need them. Using them in a second playthrough doesn’t make sense either because the first part of the game is the most enjoyable. What’s the point of skipping it with overpowered gear? And there is no "second part" after that—Sirocco is the most boring and frustrating experience I’ve ever had in a game. I’m certain I’ll never play that questline again.

6) Finding the right entrance – It's painfully frustrating that we don’t have a character indicator on the map. Whoever thought this was a good idea deserves a special place in hell. Explain to me why I have to spend 3–4 real-life hours exploring every single corner of a location just to find a dungeon entrance—and before that, I must read the wiki. I love games with hidden secrets, but this isn’t about secrets; it's just finding a damn entrance! Also, the naming conventions make things worse—territory names on the map and dungeon names are often completely different. WHY? Do you want players to spend 80% of their time reading the wiki instead of playing?

7) Money grind – You need tons of silver to build the base, which forces you to make hundreds of tedious trips between dungeons and your base, hauling items in small batches due to backpack limitations. And remember, base progression only starts after you finish the main questline—so what’s the point? By then, most mobs can't stand a chance against you. I only went through this grind once just to see what would happen, and I was very disappointed.

8) Micromanagement issues (same as early game) – Resource management is a nightmare. Who thought repairing items every 5 minutes is fun? Who thought sleeping every 5 minutes to recover burned stamina, mana, and durability is fun? Please, make all of this optional in your next game. Removing these mechanics wouldn't make the game "casual"; it would just eliminate unnecessary micromanagement that drives players away. I’m sure you lost a lot of potential sales because of this.
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Despite my very negative review here and all the small and big things I hate about this game, I’m still keeping my positive review on Steam. Why? Because the world you built is immersive, and your game provides a deep level of engagement that many new titles fail to achieve. But I really hope your next game at least partially fixes the issues I mentioned.

[Phoenix Cat]

I own several games from this Dev. This is what they are known for. This is why people play their games. The very detail and micromanagement is what people want from them. Since every other game is like this. I assume that Outward 2 will be the same. Guess we will see when it gets further in development.

[leskris]

Originally posted by Phoenix Cat:

I own several games from this Dev. This is what they are known for. This is why people play their games. The very detail and micromanagement is what people want from them. Since every other game is like this. I assume that Outward 2 will be the same. Guess we will see when it gets further in development.

I don't ask them delete those features, I am asking to make them optional for such players like me.

[Nobody]

I understand why you find the things you mentioned frustrating, but I hope that Outward 2 is very similar to Outward 1. There are no other games like this that I have seen, yet there are plenty of other games that are designed to be less niche and more "accessible". I like this niche.

[Phoenix Cat]

Originally posted by leskris:

Originally posted by Phoenix Cat:

I own several games from this Dev. This is what they are known for. This is why people play their games. The very detail and micromanagement is what people want from them. Since every other game is like this. I assume that Outward 2 will be the same. Guess we will see when it gets further in development.

I don't ask them delete those features, I am asking to make them optional for such players like me.

That would be making an entire other game to add all that as optional features. There are so many games to go play in this genre. Trust me I know because I own them.

[leskris]

Originally posted by Phoenix Cat:

Originally posted by leskris:

I don't ask them delete those features, I am asking to make them optional for such players like me.

That would be making an entire other game to add all that as optional features. There are so many games to go play in this genre. Trust me I know because I own them.

I'm not sure I quite understand what you're talking about, but in my opinion, there aren't any newly developed open-world RPGs worth playing. They all have generic plots, generic gameplay, copy-paste worlds, models, and playing styles. Given such limited choices, I have to pick a game with a good world, even if I don't particularly like its gameplay style. That said, I acknowledge that other players might enjoy it, so why not make it optional? I'm pretty sure it's not a very complicated feature to implement. They already have something similar in the Definitive Edition's debug mode, though that's obviously not a very convenient way to deliver it.

[Wingnut Mcmoomoo]

Originally posted by leskris:

Originally posted by Phoenix Cat:

That would be making an entire other game to add all that as optional features. There are so many games to go play in this genre. Trust me I know because I own them.

I'm not sure I quite understand what you're talking about, but in my opinion, there aren't any newly developed open-world RPGs worth playing. They all have generic plots, generic gameplay, copy-paste worlds, models, and playing styles. Given such limited choices, I have to pick a game with a good world, even if I don't particularly like its gameplay style. That said, I acknowledge that other players might enjoy it, so why not make it optional? I'm pretty sure it's not a very complicated feature to implement. They already have something similar in the Definitive Edition's debug mode, though that's obviously not a very convenient way to deliver it.

A game for everyone is a game for no one. The reason you don't like those other games is literally because they try to appeal to everyone. While games that take risks or make less popular choices in design tend to have more life to them and its because they aren't trying to make a game for everyone.

You're trying to push this game towards what you're already complaining about, the boils add character if we're being honest.

[leskris]

Originally posted by Wingnut Mcmoomoo:

Originally posted by leskris:

I'm not sure I quite understand what you're talking about, but in my opinion, there aren't any newly developed open-world RPGs worth playing. They all have generic plots, generic gameplay, copy-paste worlds, models, and playing styles. Given such limited choices, I have to pick a game with a good world, even if I don't particularly like its gameplay style. That said, I acknowledge that other players might enjoy it, so why not make it optional? I'm pretty sure it's not a very complicated feature to implement. They already have something similar in the Definitive Edition's debug mode, though that's obviously not a very convenient way to deliver it.

A game for everyone is a game for no one. The reason you don't like those other games is literally because they try to appeal to everyone. While games that take risks or make less popular choices in design tend to have more life to them and its because they aren't trying to make a game for everyone.

You're trying to push this game towards what you're already complaining about, the boils add character if we're being honest.

I disagree. I don’t think making some features optional or adding deep settings to the game makes it less niche or less appealing to other players. You can still play the game with your own settings—so what’s the problem?

[Phoenix Cat]

Originally posted by leskris:

Originally posted by Wingnut Mcmoomoo:

A game for everyone is a game for no one. The reason you don't like those other games is literally because they try to appeal to everyone. While games that take risks or make less popular choices in design tend to have more life to them and its because they aren't trying to make a game for everyone.

You're trying to push this game towards what you're already complaining about, the boils add character if we're being honest.

I disagree. I don’t think making some features optional or adding deep settings to the game makes it less niche or less appealing to other players. You can still play the game with your own settings—so what’s the problem?

Yet, when the game goes over time frame for development and budget and you have to pay more for it. You will complain then. So will the rest of the community. The majority of the players play their games from this company exactly for what you do not like. Why change what works for them??

[leskris]

Originally posted by Phoenix Cat:

Originally posted by leskris:

I disagree. I don’t think making some features optional or adding deep settings to the game makes it less niche or less appealing to other players. You can still play the game with your own settings—so what’s the problem?

Yet, when the game goes over time frame for development and budget and you have to pay more for it. You will complain then. So will the rest of the community. The majority of the players play their games from this company exactly for what you do not like. Why change what works for them??

There isn't any available poll that can confirm or deny what the community likes, but you can check both negative and positive Steam reviews to see that I’m not alone in my opinion.

I’m also aware of the project's constraints—time, budget, etc.—but a feature like this wouldn’t require a huge investment, probably just 1-2 weeks for the UI at most. And if the code isn’t written in a straightforward way, you should already have configuration options for such parameters; otherwise, balancing the game would be difficult.

So, it ultimately comes down to whether you want to attract players like me or not. I’m already on board, but I believe that most of the people who left mixed reviews could potentially change their minds if you implement this.

[Angel]

they aren't going to do what you asked, and they aren't concerned with attracting as many players as possible, they've said they make games for a specific niche and they're sticking with that regardless of how anyone feels about it

none of this concerning outward 1 really matters anyway, they're working on outward 2 now and we're excited for it!

p.s. nobody who actually really played this game cares about not having a map marker for the character, if you can't figure out where you are based on landmarks and the map provided it's a skill issue

also nobody is sleeping or repairing every 5 minutes if you are that's also a skill issue and no I hope they do NOT make it optional because you don't like it, just add the debug menu to your game and cheat it away if you don't like it

[leskris]

Originally posted by Angel:

they aren't going to do what you asked, and they aren't concerned with attracting as many players as possible, they've said they make games for a specific niche and they're sticking with that regardless of how anyone feels about it

none of this concerning outward 1 really matters anyway, they're working on outward 2 now and we're excited for it!

p.s. nobody who actually really played this game cares about not having a map marker for the character, if you can't figure out where you are based on landmarks and the map provided it's a skill issue

also nobody is sleeping or repairing every 5 minutes if you are that's also a skill issue and no I hope they do NOT make it optional because you don't like it, just add the debug menu to your game and cheat it away if you don't like it

Yeah, I get your point—you believe the game should strictly cater to your preferred way of playing. And even though there are options to play differently, the mere fact that I can play my way somehow makes the game worse for you, even though it doesn't affect your gameplay.

I just hope your profession isn’t product management.

[Angel]

Originally posted by leskris:

Originally posted by Angel:

they aren't going to do what you asked, and they aren't concerned with attracting as many players as possible, they've said they make games for a specific niche and they're sticking with that regardless of how anyone feels about it

none of this concerning outward 1 really matters anyway, they're working on outward 2 now and we're excited for it!

p.s. nobody who actually really played this game cares about not having a map marker for the character, if you can't figure out where you are based on landmarks and the map provided it's a skill issue

also nobody is sleeping or repairing every 5 minutes if you are that's also a skill issue and no I hope they do NOT make it optional because you don't like it, just add the debug menu to your game and cheat it away if you don't like it

Yeah, I get your point—you believe the game should strictly cater to your preferred way of playing. And even though there are options to play differently, the mere fact that I can play my way somehow makes the game worse for you, even though it doesn't affect your gameplay.

I just hope your profession isn’t product management.

everything you said is just rude and irrelevant

I want them to make the game THEY want to make whether I like them or not doesn't matter

it just so happens that I do, you done whining and wanting to make the game more casual? or have you got more posts left in you

[leskris]

Originally posted by Angel:

Originally posted by leskris:

Yeah, I get your point—you believe the game should strictly cater to your preferred way of playing. And even though there are options to play differently, the mere fact that I can play my way somehow makes the game worse for you, even though it doesn't affect your gameplay.

I just hope your profession isn’t product management.

everything you said is just rude and irrelevant

I want them to make the game THEY want to make whether I like them or not doesn't matter

it just so happens that I do, you done whining and wanting to make the game more casual? or have you got more posts left in you

Since when is sharing an opinion considered whining? And why is writing a review about my experience in the game on a game forum irrelevant?

[Angel]

Originally posted by leskris:

Originally posted by Angel:

everything you said is just rude and irrelevant

I want them to make the game THEY want to make whether I like them or not doesn't matter

it just so happens that I do, you done whining and wanting to make the game more casual? or have you got more posts left in you

Since when is sharing an opinion considered whining? And why is writing a review about my experience in the game on a game forum irrelevant?

there is a whole section for reviews, and this isn't it

take this advice, it might seem...familiar to you

https://steamcommunity.com/app/625960/eventcomments/4695657593802130462/?ctp=16#c4695657761337262854

[Naryoril]

1) You are probably overlooking several building areas, or you built every building smack dab in the middle of a huge area so that nothing else fits in there, even though you could fit 3 or 4 buildings in it. I have space to build the town twice over.

2) Running 2 - 3 minutes? New Sirocco isn't that big. And you could just buy resources in reserve if you are that concerned about running a bit.

3) That's so you don't have to pay the whole cost of the building up front. This way you can start building even though you don't have all the resources yet. But it would be nice if you could pay the resources for the second step while the first step is still in progress and then it would move to the second building step seamlessly.

4) + 5) I see these as tools to tackle the unknown arena bosses. Also, if there was no reward for the whole Sirocco building and all the hard dungeons in the Caldera region, people would be complaining about that too.

6) I never had trouble finding the entrance to something i knew was there. I have overlooked some small caves here and there before opening the wiki and checking the maps. But that never had anything to do with not knowing where i was on the map, that's about the real life skill of reading maps. Granted, it's a skill that many people have lost nowadays, or never learned in the first place, due to GPS. Personally I enjoy it a lot if games don't show your position on the map, but the game has to be built for this to work, and almost no game nowadays is.

7) You don't, if you build your town correctly it can easily finance itself. Granted, on your first playthrough without using the wiki, you won't know that. But basically:
a) Don't build a hunter's lodge, only mason and woodworker, and never upgrade them (it makes no sense, after an upgrade the produce 2 more resource a day, at a cost of 25 upkeep. You could spend 20 funds to buy these 2 resources.... So even if the upgrade would not take any resources itself, it would be a loss. The devs really dropped the ball here)
b) Build the city call, a food store and another shop as your first 3 specialized buildings. The food store will generate enough food for your town, that's why you don't need a hunter's lodge. And the 2 shops as well as the city hall will generate the money.
c) Wait with building the gladiator arena and enchanting guild until you have enough funds or you have enough cash in your stash to pump into the city. What else are you gonna use the money for anyway at that point. And don't build these places in the first place if you don't need them.

8) That's not a thing, you are exaggerating widely. Or your are getting beaten up by monsters constantly, which will wreck your health burn and gear durability.

Originally posted by leskris:

I'm not sure I quite understand what you're talking about, but in my opinion, there aren't any newly developed open-world RPGs worth playing. They all have generic plots, generic gameplay, copy-paste worlds, models, and playing styles.

And yet, you complain that you don't get the same generic gameplay and playing style in Outward...