Chakrams need a change

[Terra Blade]

I love the concept of chakrams, from as a girl seeing Xena with her signature weapon to the more recent games with magic chakrams buzzing about. But chakrams feel like a halfhearted implementation.

Needs a spell to use? Sure, so does the pistol, so that is fair. Has a cooldown and can't be spammed? Again, same as pistol. But needs a buff to use? What other weapon needs that? If you wanted to restrict it, why not just use mana like any other spell? In fact it would have made for more interesting builds doing it that way as you then had to balance using mana for other spells or for your weapon.

of all the skills and weapons, it feels like chakrams are the most railroaded by the devs. Everything has to revolve around the Discipline buff, and because of that it limits the versatility of a magical weapon that could have given even more build variety.

It makes me want to find mods that just remove that restriction, as honestly it just feels arbitrary by the devs, and just plain isn't fun to work around. Why put in something you don't want people to use? Was it a requirement by an investor or something to put it in?

[Midas]

Lots of class skills require a buff to use. Lots of magic requires a specific item to use. That the Chakram needs these is nothing unusual. It's just the consequence of being weapon-based magic, same as spellblade which needs boons to use its infusions.

That aside, Discipline is a really good buff to have anyways, and most chakrams do physical damage, so they directly benefit from that buff. Also the buff itself is a counter. I don't see any drawback of having it. It's better than Spellblade needing boons but not benefiting from boons unless you get the timing down perfectly.

The fact of the matter is for their damage and impact, Chakram spells have extremely low mana costs and cooldowns, and don't require any other combos like other magic does to make them effective.

[Terra Blade]

Originally posted by Midas:

Lots of class skills require a buff to use. Lots of magic requires a specific item to use. That the Chakram needs these is nothing unusual. It's just the consequence of being weapon-based magic, same as spellblade which needs boons to use its infusions.

That aside, Discipline is a really good buff to have anyways, and most chakrams do physical damage, so they directly benefit from that buff. Also the buff itself is a counter. I don't see any drawback of having it. It's better than Spellblade needing boons but not benefiting from boons unless you get the timing down perfectly.

The fact of the matter is for their damage and impact, Chakram spells have extremely low mana costs and cooldowns, and don't require any other combos like other magic does to make them effective.

Weapon SKILLS may need a buff, but no other weapon needs a buff to just be use. The closest is maybe the pistol, but it is simply needing to reload each shot, but that isn't really a "buff".

Yes discipline benefits chakra, but it also benefits pistols and bows. But pistols and bows don't require discipline to fire or be used. Hence the issue.

[Midas]

Originally posted by Terra Blade:

Originally posted by Midas:

Lots of class skills require a buff to use. Lots of magic requires a specific item to use. That the Chakram needs these is nothing unusual. It's just the consequence of being weapon-based magic, same as spellblade which needs boons to use its infusions.

That aside, Discipline is a really good buff to have anyways, and most chakrams do physical damage, so they directly benefit from that buff. Also the buff itself is a counter. I don't see any drawback of having it. It's better than Spellblade needing boons but not benefiting from boons unless you get the timing down perfectly.

The fact of the matter is for their damage and impact, Chakram spells have extremely low mana costs and cooldowns, and don't require any other combos like other magic does to make them effective.

Weapon SKILLS may need a buff, but no other weapon needs a buff to just be use. The closest is maybe the pistol, but it is simply needing to reload each shot, but that isn't really a "buff".

Yes discipline benefits chakra, but it also benefits pistols and bows. But pistols and bows don't require discipline to fire or be used. Hence the issue.

No offhand can just 'be used' except shields, so comparing it to main weapon skills is pointless. Even pistols need both a fire skill and a load skill for any of the special shots. Cold shot needs the cold boon AND the skill to load cold shot AND the actual shoot/reload skill to fire it. Blood bullet is the same way. Shield Gong needs a boon AND an infusion AND shield gong to use. So, no, this isn't exclusive to chakram.

Even Rune Magic arguably has a similar problem, because the lexicon by itself does nothing, it just takes up a hand slot as a requirement, and you need all 4 runes to really get the full usage out of any of them, always needing 2 at a time. So it's still Offhand occupied that requires 2 other abilities in order to do anything.

And, once again, the chakram's damage, impact, and mana cost are all very good to balance against it.


It sounds like you basically want the chakram equivilant of the basic dagger attack and have it not require discipline, but what would be the point? Why even bother making a weak basic attack with a chakram when the actual activated abilities have such short cooldowns?

[SrsBznz]

Chakrams are fine but I was a bit disappointed with them at first too, my expectations were more along the lines of them being battle mage implements and would have melee weapon movesets for basic attacks.

Something like Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MuUlYOK40_M

It may have done chakrams in a more exciting way but sadly the game overall wasn't anything amazing.

[yuvhaim]

one liveweed one green fly and water will give you 3 concentration potions and that's it, you are good to go, chuck their heads off....
if you have the dlc and you are a speedster you can use it to always be in concentration too (remove its cool down).

[Midas]

Originally posted by SrsBznz:

Chakrams are fine but I was a bit disappointed with them at first too, my expectations were more along the lines of them being battle mage implements and would have melee weapon movesets for basic attacks.

Something like Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MuUlYOK40_M

It may have done chakrams in a more exciting way but sadly the game overall wasn't anything amazing.

In fairness, nothing about Outward's combat even scratches Kingdom of Amalur's combat.

[SrsBznz]

Originally posted by Midas:

Originally posted by SrsBznz:

Chakrams are fine but I was a bit disappointed with them at first too, my expectations were more along the lines of them being battle mage implements and would have melee weapon movesets for basic attacks.

Something like Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MuUlYOK40_M

It may have done chakrams in a more exciting way but sadly the game overall wasn't anything amazing.

In fairness, nothing about Outward's combat even scratches Kingdom of Amalur's combat.

I prefer Outward's combat system actually. Amalur's was way too button mashy and easy, sure it looked pretty but it was style over substance. Now Outward has its own issues with combat but I find it far more enjoyable.

I love all of Piranha Byte's games and Outward's combat system feels quite similar so it was easy to pick up.

[Midas]

Originally posted by SrsBznz:

Originally posted by Midas:

In fairness, nothing about Outward's combat even scratches Kingdom of Amalur's combat.

I prefer Outward's combat system actually. Amalur's was way too button mashy and easy, sure it looked pretty but it was style over substance. Now Outward has its own issues with combat but I find it far more enjoyable.

I love all of Piranha Byte's games and Outward's combat system feels quite similar so it was easy to pick up.

Outward has more crunchy combat, but Amalur's combat rewarded build and playstyle way more. But Amalur's combat is more about fighting groups rather than fighting individual targets.

[SkilledZero]

Well chakram's dont seem too useless the way they currently are, I think it's a matter of if you're going to use chakrams, go all out and think of a build that focuses on using them but at the same time has back up plans to make it work.

Personally if I were to use chakrams I would go a route that can do a bit of melee and range damage at the same time.

Here is a build I came up with that suits my personal playstyle. (keep in mind I usually don't bother with chakrams, so it may seem a little odd at first)

Hopefully max stats would be 140 Health, 140 Stamina, 115 mana this includes a few passives, but does not include any stat increase you might get with faction choice (in fact i'm going to ignore those bonuses so feel free to choose any faction)

+4 mana from leyline. Base stats 80/80/80

Philosopher, Spell Blade, Hex Mage

Passives:
Spellblades Awakening: +15 Health, Mana, Stamina
Fitness: +25 Health
Efficiency: +25 Stamina
Peacemaker Elixer: +20 Health, Mana, Stamina (any faction can use this so including it)
Bloodlust: Each death around you gain +5 Health, Stamina, Mana burn recovery.
Leyline Connection: 0.34 mana per second
Slow Metabolism: Takes longer to become hungry, thristy, sleepy (this will help maintain tired status)
Fast maintenance: 50% Faster equipment repair
Armor Training: Decrease stamina and movement speed reduction by 50% while wearing armor
Steady aim: +15 Impact resistance while blocking
Metabolic Purge: 10% Corruption Resistance
Nightmares: Max mana burn while sleeping 25% (instead of 50%)
Lockwells Revelation: Elemental damage increased while tired 15%, very tired 30%
Fire Affinity: +15 Fire Damage Bonus, +20 Fire Resistance

Weapons and Armor:
Virgin Set: Inner Warmth (+35% Fire Bonus Damage -45% Ethereal Damage Resistance)
Virgin Mace: Desert Sun (+35% Base weapon damage as Fire damage also inflicts burning, 3 fire damage per second for 40 seconds)
Ornate Chakram: Musings of the philosopher (now addes scorched and chill hex debuff, +4 Fire damage +4 Frost damage added to weapon)

Food:
Primary - Bread of the Wild, Cheesecake, Angel Food Cake (Grants warm boon, Discipline boon, along with health, mana, stamina recovery, +5,+3,+3 is the highest I believe)
Optional - Bayatelle, Diademe de Giber, Marshmelon Tartine, Grilled manaheart Bass

Potions:
Health and Astral potions are the only needed ones, everything else is optional.

Tent:
Mage Tent is probably best due to the amount of skills needing mana with +5% increased mana cost from Virgin Helm. Net mana cost reduction -10% with tent.

Active skills:
Warm Boon
Infuse Fire
Elemental Discharge
Chakram Pierce
Chakram Arc
Chakram Dance
Torment
Detonate
Brace
Focus
Mace Infusion
Cleanse

You can go with any combination, with some being off the quick bar. I personally would use Warm boon, Infuse Fire, Elemental Discharge, Chakram Pierce/Arc/Dance, Torment, Brace and Mace infusion on the bar to use at any time, everything else I would switch as needed or just use from the skill menu. Cleanse is only for the corruption removal if you get too much from tormenting, mana stone and 50% corruption needed, will create a dark stone and deal damage to you, make sure you're in a safe situation before attempting.

Ok so the goal is to buff up discipline ahead of time with either focus, the angle food cake, or just wait to brace then have at it (brace is on a short enough cooldown that you can always keep discipline boon up, but you have to make sure you block an attack, since it fails sometimes the other two are good backups)

I personally like to have counters, mace infusion I thought was a good one since it will block any attack, and grant an infusion to your melee weapon if the attack is elemental. I would make sure I had warm boon and Mystic fire imbue on at all times to guarantee the most fire damage from melee attacks and elemental discharge. Pull with Elemental discharge and when the enemies get within rolling distance use chakram arc or pierce followed by dance as needed, time it correctly though as you want to make sure you're not wasting mana or ability cooldowns, don't just pop them off as you can miss key hits. Brace and chakram arc are good ways of knocking them down, then follow with a dance or just melee attack them. Once you see that your enchanted chakram has inflicted hexes, proceed to torment them as you evade their attacks. If the enemy runs at low health, attack them with elemental discharge as they run away.

[SrsBznz]

Originally posted by SkilledZero:

[build idea]

Why not go for Speedster instead of Spell Blade? That 40% CDR would let you spam chakram pierce and arc like crazy and the sprint speed helps with positioning. You also get to reset Chakram Dance or Discipline and the Unerring Read is a solid defensive option.

If you plan on mixing in melee, why not apply hexes with Rainbow Hex enchantment and instead use a Frozen Chakram for Elemental Vulnerability?
This would mean switching to a more cold oriented build, Master Desert Set with Inner Cold looks like a nice hybrid armor with reduction to both mana and stamina cost plus some movement speed on the side.

You could also use Chill Hex to instantly apply Chill and focus more on spamming chakrams instead of building up hexes and entering melee.

[SkilledZero]

Originally posted by SrsBznz:

Originally posted by SkilledZero:

[build idea]

Why not go for Speedster instead of Spell Blade? That 40% CDR would let you spam chakram pierce and arc like crazy and the sprint speed helps with positioning. You also get to reset Chakram Dance or Discipline and the Unerring Read is a solid defensive option.

If you plan on mixing in melee, why not apply hexes with Rainbow Hex enchantment and instead use a Frozen Chakram for Elemental Vulnerability?
This would mean switching to a more cold oriented build, Master Desert Set with Inner Cold looks like a nice hybrid armor with reduction to both mana and stamina cost plus some movement speed on the side.

You could also use Chill Hex to instantly apply Chill and focus more on spamming chakrams instead of building up hexes and entering melee.

Spell blade to me is superior. I've tried out the speedster's ability that generates the necessary alertness buff that grants the CDR. I personally think the negatives suck (increases the damage you take) and the ability is too labor intensive in managing those stacks. Also anytime you get hit, you lose an alert level, resets the point of CDR etc. At that point you're focused on being a speedster and a different build would be more suited for it.

The hex part is just an added bonus and the real focus in the tree is the burn recovery passive, the goal is to focus on using spell blades mystic fire imbue with all of the Fire damage bonus, the build actually hits like a truck with the melee weapon while being able to take its time. You can counter, knock down, take advantage of knockdown and most enemies will be dead, if they survive long enough for torment to even be relevant, it should still be over. I don't intend on rushing through any attacks, each move I do is deliberate.

I do like the Rainbow Hex on the sword, and something Ive thought of with that would be rust lich armor with rainbow hex with copper flame virgin lantern. My thought on this build idea is that fully buffed out and trying to reach the max damage range, you're looking at nearly 100 damage per any attack, elemental discharge, each regular melee hit, and the chakram would be a knockdown and finisher dealing massive damage as well. I doubt many enemies have that much health in the game.

[SrsBznz]

Originally posted by SkilledZero:

Originally posted by SrsBznz:

Why not go for Speedster instead of Spell Blade? That 40% CDR would let you spam chakram pierce and arc like crazy and the sprint speed helps with positioning. You also get to reset Chakram Dance or Discipline and the Unerring Read is a solid defensive option.

If you plan on mixing in melee, why not apply hexes with Rainbow Hex enchantment and instead use a Frozen Chakram for Elemental Vulnerability?
This would mean switching to a more cold oriented build, Master Desert Set with Inner Cold looks like a nice hybrid armor with reduction to both mana and stamina cost plus some movement speed on the side.

You could also use Chill Hex to instantly apply Chill and focus more on spamming chakrams instead of building up hexes and entering melee.

Spell blade to me is superior. I've tried out the speedster's ability that generates the necessary alertness buff that grants the CDR. I personally think the negatives suck (increases the damage you take) and the ability is too labor intensive in managing those stacks. Also anytime you get hit, you lose an alert level, resets the point of CDR etc. At that point you're focused on being a speedster and a different build would be more suited for it.

The hex part is just an added bonus and the real focus in the tree is the burn recovery passive, the goal is to focus on using spell blades mystic fire imbue with all of the Fire damage bonus, the build actually hits like a truck with the melee weapon while being able to take its time. You can counter, knock down, take advantage of knockdown and most enemies will be dead, if they survive long enough for torment to even be relevant, it should still be over. I don't intend on rushing through any attacks, each move I do is deliberate.

I do like the Rainbow Hex on the sword, and something Ive thought of with that would be rust lich armor with rainbow hex with copper flame virgin lantern. My thought on this build idea is that fully buffed out and trying to reach the max damage range, you're looking at nearly 100 damage per any attack, elemental discharge, each regular melee hit, and the chakram would be a knockdown and finisher dealing massive damage as well. I doubt many enemies have that much health in the game.

If you're going with the theme of a melee/ranged hybrid then I see your point regarding alertness being annoying to maintain, but with a focus on chakram spamming and always keeping out of range, it sounds more manageable. I haven't tested it myself, just something that seemed fun to go for in the future.

I didn't realize you valued the Hex Mage breakthrough skill that highly, it's without a doubt a great QoL passive that exceeded my expectations but in the end it's still just QoL. To me Lockwell's Revelation would be the true purpose.

Why copper flame virgin lantern? You can already apply Poison and Weaken with Torment and you can use Curse Hex to apply curse. Better use Chimera with Shatter bullet, this way you'll be able to apply Elemental Vulnerability and Pain.

[SkilledZero]

Rust lich armor reduced physical damage dealt by 90%, Copper flame lantern with flamethrower does no damage. Wind infused Cerulean sabre with amplified rage will do 3 physical damage per strike but keep the enemy staggered as if hit with a marbled greatmace, when they drop to the ground flamethrower copper flame in the face then keep attack them until they have all the proper hexes then rupture, repeat the process. Honestly it was just a fun idea to do no physical damage at all and just break them with torment and rupture, that is all lol.

Yes lockwells revelation is the build is a factor, but that breakthrough is gonna cause me to have a hexmage in every build I make in the future, im sure.

[SrsBznz]

Originally posted by SkilledZero:

Rust lich armor reduced physical damage dealt by 90%, Copper flame lantern with flamethrower does no damage. Wind infused Cerulean sabre with amplified rage will do 3 physical damage per strike but keep the enemy staggered as if hit with a marbled greatmace, when they drop to the ground flamethrower copper flame in the face then keep attack them until they have all the proper hexes then rupture, repeat the process. Honestly it was just a fun idea to do no physical damage at all and just break them with torment and rupture, that is all lol.

No I totally get it, I'm actually going for something along those lines. But why copper flame lantern? All it brings to the table is curse, which can be applied with the Curse Hex instead. That opens up your off-hand and like I suggested, with the Chimera you can apply both pain and Elemental Vulnerability.

If you want to apply the most possible debuffs and rek enemies with torment and rupture, this is clearly superior. Both of them benefit greatly from Elemental Vulnerability, the physical component from Pain will be less noticable but it makes Torment cause bleeding which is not based on your phys damage.

Personally I'll probably go for something other than Rust Lich armor since the physical damage you can put out wont be insignificant even if it's not a focus of the build. Though I respect your choice for the no phys meme route.