I think I misjudged chakrams

[Midas]

I played around with Chakrams a bit early on and dismissed them as basically garbage, and I noticed a lot of others seem to feel the same way. On a whim I decided to take one of my postgame spellcasters and play around with it again with a kazite chakram and I'm thinking I may have been a little hasty in dismissing its potential.

While it does seem fairly useless on a mage, and conflicts a lot with the far-more-utilitarian runic magic, I realized that it's actually amazing on a battlemage or any other variant of low-mana melee-centric character. Arc and Pierce both do insane impact damage, to the point that Arc in particular one-shots most target's stability bars. I can trivially hit a target with pierce, which takes them straight to half stability and staggers them, followup with a bunch of melee attacks until they're knocked down, then as they get up again cast Arc and just knock them straight down a second time for more free hits. It has a lot of the power and damage of a pistol, without needing to reload. Though it's less like a ranged attack, and more like a long-reach melee attack.

Also the main two attacks are really low on mana cost. I doubt you'd even need much mana to make good use of them. I think I might even do a playthrough around using it with how effective it seems.

[DarkFaceGlow]

Yup. I use a Frozen Chakram with the Skycrown mace and it’s amazing.

[Mommy Long Leg’s]

I must dissagree with you.
As right noticed,chakrams is complete garbage for mage spec, cause of their range that requires almost melee, good impact resistance and some protection.So for meele spec-you waste your offhand slot. Does chakrams better than shield, dagger, pistol or latern? I doubt it. Chakrams consume you mana: 5, 8, 20 so you need to spend a lot in mana as meele - is it worth it?And perhaps the main reason why chakrams are bad, cause of their mechanics: chakram abilities are linear - they simply cant travel down slopes or inclines, such as staircases. It means that every other ranged skill/weapon has more advantage over chakrams.

[Midas]

Waifu Jane の投稿を引用：

I must dissagree with you.
As right noticed,chakrams is complete garbage for mage spec, cause of their range that requires almost melee, good impact resistance and some protection.So for meele spec-you waste your offhand slot. Does chakrams better than shield, dagger, pistol or latern? I doubt it. Chakrams consume you mana: 5, 8, 20 so you need to spend a lot in mana as meele - is it worth it?And perhaps the main reason why chakrams are bad, cause of their mechanics: chakram abilities are linear - they simply cant travel down slopes or inclines, such as staircases. It means that every other ranged skill/weapon has more advantage over chakrams.

Actually, yeah, I'd say it's better than a shield, dagger, or pistol. Much faster cooldowns than any of them, higher damage, generally higher impact damage as well (I literally can one-shot a giant's full stability bar with Chakram Arc, and it has like a 5sec cooldown). Pistols hit harder, but not with the sort of reload time they're stuck with. The linearity of the attacks doesn't matter at close range, and like I said, they're more like a long-reach melee attack than a ranged attack. I would say it's only real drawback is that you have to essentially branch into magic on an otherwise-non-magic character, which is a bit counter-intuitive.

And like a melee attack, they don't have to worry about being stopped by hitting an enemy corpse or the edge of a piece of terrain, or anything similar. They hit everything in their attack arc, through multiple enemies even. Dagger actually might be stronger in the sheer sense of maximum damage potential, but dagger is heavily reliant on having the right combos and status effects on the target to justify their damage, and don't handle groups of enemies as well.

[Midas]

DarkFaceGlow の投稿を引用：

Yup. I use a Frozen Chakram with the Skycrown mace and it’s amazing.

Yeah, I was using it with the skycrown as well. Basically destroyed the stability bar of everything. I've never seen anything else able to so reliably and consistently drop a stability bar on an enemy right after they've stood up.

[DarkFaceGlow]

Waifu Jane の投稿を引用：

I must dissagree with you.
As right noticed,chakrams is complete garbage for mage spec, cause of their range that requires almost melee, good impact resistance and some protection.So for meele spec-you waste your offhand slot. Does chakrams better than shield, dagger, pistol or latern? I doubt it. Chakrams consume you mana: 5, 8, 20 so you need to spend a lot in mana as meele - is it worth it?And perhaps the main reason why chakrams are bad, cause of their mechanics: chakram abilities are linear - they simply cant travel down slopes or inclines, such as staircases. It means that every other ranged skill/weapon has more advantage over chakrams.

For the most part, I’d agree with you. Yet there are some ways to make things great. My example above is one of them. I used the Skycrown with Crimson Plate armor. I had no need for a shield, as my damage was too great to even worry. The Frozen Chakram causes elemental Vulnerability, so a quick hit with that can make your elements do some nice damage. It sucks that they aren’t a bit more ranged, but then again, some nice AOEs are close range as well. A quick Chakram spell followed by Spark inside a Wind Sigil, for example = Peace out, beyotches.

[Midas]

rubdown の投稿を引用：

I think the issue is mainly the lack of balance for them, something I'd like to see changed. They have their niche uses, but other weapons fill that void just as well, often more simply, without any hassle. They need a nudge up to become something I'd use outside of a fun character to ♥♥♥♥ around with while showing the game to a friend.

So far they're easily one of the most powerful weapons I've used. I'd argue people haven't been using them correctly. So far I've made a new character, gave her a kazite chakram, philosopher skill line, and runic armor, and she's steamrolled everything so far. 3-shot the tuasar in conflux mountain without getting hit and without much trouble, killed a wendigo already. Just +2 mana (-10 health/stam for 40 mana) and the regen passive from philosopher and she never runs out of mana.

[Midas]

rubdown の投稿を引用：

I won't argue with you, enjoy what you enjoy, but other builds can do the same just as simply and they're pretty universally considered weak because they are, but there's always gotta be the people that "discover their hidden strengths" when everyone's already been there, done that, and moved on.

Not sure what is weak about 2-3 shoting a tuasaur or one-shotting a giant's stability bar. Should I go after the royal manticore with just one class or something?

[Midas]

rubdown の投稿を引用：

You can get the same effect from simple pistol cycling without having to rely on cooldowns or consumables for Discipline, for instance. It's weak in that it requires more preparation for the same effect as other styles, which is what needs a slight buff or tweak. Bullets are insanely plentiful, and with a varied collection of guns, not only do you destroy their stability before they can react, you've also debuffed them with about every debuff in the game from range, all of which you can do very early into a build on a fresh character. The effects you're discussing are similar to so many other, simpler builds, but the class fantasy of a chakram is appealing to some, so I get it.

If you have 20 pistols, sure. Otherwise you're still running away to reload. Using discipline is not a drawback, it's a 15% physical damage buff and a counter. It's worth using entirely on its own, and most melee builds will want it for monk anyways.

[Midas]

rubdown の投稿を引用：

4 pistols will suffice and is next to nothing in terms of bag space as most veterans are switching their bags over via co-op by this point anyhow. Long story short, play what you like, be wowed by what you like, but most of us would like to see them get a buff considering their awkwardly long cooldowns pale in comparison to other builds, and it's sad to see, because I went in excited to see how they played.

Awkardly long... 6 second cooldown for the main skill? The more I hear, the more skeptical I become. Which were these 4 pistols that you can get very early in the game with less investment?

[Midas]

rubdown の投稿を引用：

Most every pistol is a few kills away with very easy recipes to finish out within a short time in the game. Hell, one of my favorites requires materials you can get completely outside of Berg in a few simple kills (Obsidian Pistol). Chakrams only fall off as time goes on. They can nuke a few things, but 6 seconds on a main skill is horrible compared to literally anything else due to the lowered defensive options without switching, or running around kiting. Be skeptical all you want, you found a magical secret no one else has discovered, enjoy your overpowered build and one shotting the Lich, you've earned it for delving so deep into unknown waters.

'Fall off as time goes on' against what? I've already tested it against seveal of the tougher enemies. And so far I haven't been running or kiting anything. Like I already said twice, it functions best like a melee weapon.

[Midas]

rubdown の投稿を引用：

You should really keep this crazy overpowered build under wraps. We don't want people ruining their fun by 3 shotting a mid-level enemy.

For someone who is so eager to shoot down other people's ideas, you're sure quick to dodge providing anything concrete to test your 'veteran builds' against.

If an obsidian pistol is really supposed to be an example of anything, then you definitely haven't put any real time into testing this. If what you ACTUALLY mean is you need an obsidian pistol, a chimera pistol, and two ornate/cannon pistols, I'm pretty sure that's not a minimal investment.

[Midas]

rubdown の投稿を引用：

Burning and DOTs are insanely good in Outward, so much so that a DOT build shreds through the literal toughest enemies without threat of getting hit. Your "idea" isn't an idea, it's a build that people have discussed endlessly, and as of right now, is simply subpar. An Obsidian Pistol and literally any bow for a ranged build, which is the basic concept surrounding Chakrams anyhow, will net you every DOT if I'm not mistaken, from ranged, with one simple switch and without requiring another pistol if you choose against it. Literally no danger for next to no investment.

If chakram were as good as you're pretending here, they'd have popped up across build recommendations time and time again because people that play this game, REALLY play it, and make every build they can think of before calling it quits.

So your superior build is to take way longer kiting enemies around while they slowly burn to death? Why not just call 'laying down a million tripwire traps' a build? It's even easier to get and fuel than pistols. Not sure why you keep talking about ranged combat either. It's not a ranged combat build.

[Midas]

rubdown の投稿を引用：

You don't even need to kite, most normal enemies will die before they even reach you, and the tougher ones can be finished off with Elemental Weakness as I laid out before. You don't even need to use traps, at all, because they're redundant with the DOTs you've already applied. I've tried many builds, Chakram being one of the most disappointing outright. I don't know the time you've spent in the game, but I'm thinking you've not tried that many builds, considering the downright broken builds that exist in the game as it stands. Chakram are the least impressive by a mile.

Defend them all you want, I'd like to see them buffed in the DLC and elevated to be as good as other builds rather than pretending they're a little-known secret like some sort of youtube clickbait title when they're actually just underplayed due to being, sadly, subpar in comparison.

If you say so. I just tested it out against the trog queen, and I'm not sure what good fire DOTs would do against the healing, or how you'd reload very much with all the trogs attacking.