Passengers not getting onto buses

[Incrediblejimmy]

I currently use a setup with a two-stop (one in one out) passenger busline using the free busstops and the fzk ao7 minibus - and I constantly see the buses not loading up all the passengers...
Bus stop is full of waiting passengers, buses arrive empty, leave with one passenger inside...

Can anyone confirm? Am I missing a new mechanic?

[Incrediblejimmy]

Originally posted by RP-BOOST:

Originally posted by RP-BOOST:

Soon I'll be finishing the base of my republic and I'll start to do it, so I'll observe this "problem" more closely in the realistic way.
At the moment the customs supplies my industries without many problems.
but the fact is, if a bus stop is closer than going directly to the cinema, many chose to wait there, even if they can walk and this is something that is not new, I mean that it would not be something exclusive to the cosmo mode.
In order not to saturate my stations, I always turn off the "wait at bus stop for passengers, tourists and students." If I don't have to offer why would I let them go there? Knowing that in the game mechanics they are set to wait there if they don't have any demand met, even if they can walk to the place and don't."
NOTE: I particularly love to build radios and tv broadcasts in my republics to help end their unsatisfied demands.

This video explains almost everything I wanted to convey here.

Ok, then I may not have expressed the problem correctly, as i see no mention of it in the video. I'll try again:
-> Passengers that lack a need wait on bus stations to get into buses to the need-fulfilling building they want to go
-> they do this even if no such building is serviced by lines that go to the station they wait on, they even do this if no such building exists on the entire map
-> if only a minimum of their needs is fulfilled, they wait there - a lot
-> them waiting uses capacity of the bus stop
-> if other passengers need the bus stop to get to buildings that can actually be reached from it, they aren't able to use the bus stop because capacity is full

I.e. in Cosmo where it takes possibly ingame years to build every type of building they need this is not solved with clicking the buy-button, on whatever building pops are lacking, but actually makes connecting separated housing and free-time districts nonsensicly tedious.
- Especially as you are more likely to use the 100 capacity bus stops in Cosmo
- Especially as you are more likely to use the pre-existing houses that are stretched too far to access a free time facility in Cosmo
- Especially as you are less likely to be able to connect things with high range walking options like tunnels, or even gravel paths

* not to forget if I remember correctly when this video came out, the biggest house had a capacity of 189 pops, and the smallest bus stop was 200 - now its 500 to 100; so I'ld guess the problem will require people to work around in other difficulties more and more as well...

[RP-BOOST]

Later I will post here what I observed, I only play in cosmo style, even before it is now released, this problem can be solved by just unchecking the platform passengers wait options, but even if you don't want to do that " micromanagement", but from my observations and using only the free stations I observed this "problem" as I mentioned before, more for a problem of the capacity of the station game, in this case only for 100 people, in a republic to supply only the needs of construction industry, it will quickly be full of people waiting for a transport to meet their needs, even if there is a court or a movie theater next door, some of them still prefer to wait on the platform, and of course, if you don't update your platform passengers soon it will be full of people waiting there and workers won't have access to it, but I haven't really proven that yet, because I started my current save with a map blank and I'm in the construction phase of my republic, as soon as we update the platforms we'll see if this is a "error" in fact. But in my observation it is a lot of what was explained in the video, if for some reason the citizen did not manage to meet their needs even for 1s, either because of a delay for a worker to arrive at the cinema, school, sport, university, bar, mall or a small and subtle failure in the power interruption, or a train blocked a road and even a long wait of a bus somewhere with workers, all this can affect a citizen and so he goes to the passenger station waiting for something the bus will take you somewhere that meets your needs and that's why I always have an internal line just for passengers on one side and the other, because I know that for some reason, some of them prefer to go to the platform that is 250m from the to meet your needs at a distance of 300m.

[Incrediblejimmy]

Originally posted by RP-BOOST:

Later I will post here what I observed, I only play in cosmo style, even before it is now released, this problem can be solved by just unchecking the platform passengers wait options, but even if you don't want to do that " micromanagement", but from my observations and using only the free stations I observed this "problem" as I mentioned before, more for a problem of the capacity of the station game, in this case only for 100 people, in a republic to supply only the needs of construction industry, it will quickly be full of people waiting for a transport to meet their needs, even if there is a court or a movie theater next door, some of them still prefer to wait on the platform, and of course, if you don't update your platform passengers soon it will be full of people waiting there and workers won't have access to it, but I haven't really proven that yet, because I started my current save with a map blank and I'm in the construction phase of my republic, as soon as we update the platforms we'll see if this is a "error" in fact. But in my observation it is a lot of what was explained in the video, if for some reason the citizen did not manage to meet their needs even for 1s, either because of a delay for a worker to arrive at the cinema, school, sport, university, bar, mall or a small and subtle failure in the power interruption, or a train blocked a road and even a long wait of a bus somewhere with workers, all this can affect a citizen and so he goes to the passenger station waiting for something the bus will take you somewhere that meets your needs and that's why I always have an internal line just for passengers on one side and the other, because I know that for some reason, some of them prefer to go to the platform that is 250m from the to meet your needs at a distance of 300m.

"workers won't have access to it"

Thats obvious, and easily solved/worked around with a second station and seperate lines for the two- what i think is the main problem is that passengers do not enter passenger buses - that means those who don't get on the passenger bus can block the station for other passengers who need it - and that is not solvable with the passenger-checkbox.

Wether or not it becomes a problem is probably heavily setup-dependent - as i saw it starting to happen I immediately began to build houses in walking distance - not to provoke collapse. In my case it were roughly 1 waiting for non-existant buses per 5 inhabitants - so 500 population in reach of a simple bus stop should start to break it. Are you going for a pure bus connected entertainment area, or semi walkable?
Would be really interesting to hear how it turns out for you...

It maybe completely solveable by capacity as you write, but I honestly do not see why they need to be there in the first place - if the game knows what bus they can and cannot take, and it knows what stations the bus services it can't be impossible for the game to apply both factors to path selection...

[Silent_Shadow]

Originally posted by Incrediblejimmy:

Ok, but I'm not a new player, I'm nearig 2000h, and playing on Cosmo - I do not think you get the problem, because you seem to play on easier difficulties, which I take from your advise to buy a building - which is ok, but goes besides the point. The point of the game is to build stuff up at least in higher difficulties - if something doesn't work during the process of building up, which clearly should, something is not working correctly.

Well, I'm sure such an expert player knows that price is just a relative metric for the resource cost (you know, because the price is based on the stuff needed to build it?) There's nothing stopping you from building it quickly via cosmonaut rules. Are you just trying to be obtuse?

Originally posted by Incrediblejimmy:

It maybe completely solveable by capacity as you write, but I honestly do not see why they need to be there in the first place - if the game knows what bus they can and cannot take, and it knows what stations the bus services it can't be impossible for the game to apply both factors to path selection...

I suspect the game doesn't check potential destinations beyond two stops for performance reasons, so citizens probably need to go to a station to even be able to check the line's stops:

Start: Home (or other free time building) - Walk to Stop 1
Stop 1: Pickup station - Ride to Stop 2
Stop 2: Drop off station - Walk to stop 3
Stop 3: Desired building - Do errand/job.

With only two steps checked per trip check, the game would only check up to the drop off stations, but not the actual free time (or work/school) buildings. Citizens would then always conclude that the line didn't go to anywhere they wanted and never enter the station. This could be "fixed" by expanding the search to a third step, but consider how rapidly the workload for the computer would balloon as it checks all the potential stops of all the lines that connect to every stop of said lines per citizen.

From this and a few other behaviors, like how most citizens teleport back home after work/errands, I suspect that citizens congregate at stations and you have to designate stops as transfer points purely for the sake of performance.

[Incrediblejimmy]

"Well, I'm sure such an expert player knows that price is just a relative metric for the resource cost (you know, because the price is based on the stuff needed to build it?) There's nothing stopping you from building it quickly via cosmonaut rules. Are you just trying to be obtuse?"

I did not say I'm an expert, i said i am not new (which you should know because we had other discussions months ago, where you also assumed I was new for some reason). My point is that on higher difficulties it takes time to build everything, and it doesn't matter if thats a shop, a cinema, an attraction, or something else - building an attraction means a shop or cinema or pub doesn't get build early, and pops will lack that - you are always operating on partially incomplete setups, and the game should work on those. If basic mechanics don't do that, they become lategame-exclusive, which goes beyond the point of the game - which is about building stuff up, not just watching it run after its completed. Whats your point?


"I suspect the game doesn't check potential destinations beyond two stops for performance reasons"

Maybe, so? If a mechanic doesn't work or causes bugs it needs to be fixed or replaced. I mean if you think about it we have been at the exact same problem before. Afair before they checked wether to get on or not at the station they all got on every bus, and never got off it until their travel time was up. So the clogging and waiting endlessly happened inside the buses. Lets say average bus capacity is in the 60s or 70s, and the smallest bus station has a capacity of 100, means the problem occurs at roughly 150% of the throughput where it occured before (if we assume the line is well timed, and there is one bus per waiting cycle).
It was never solved, its just happening on less occasions and at higher throughput, but its still not solved.

And when the lines got clogged with passengers not exiting vehicles, it was enough reason for the devs to build a solution. Now there are buildings with higher capacity, so the potential population in walking range from a bus station is much higher than it was in the earlier versions, so its really not hard to see why the problem is back, and needs a solution.
- Higher station capacities could work, but I doubt thats the way to go, because it would mean functionally endless capacity was necessary, which would eliminate the difference between stop-types
- More option checkboxes who is allowed on the stations could work, so if there is ie no pub one can simply uncheck passengers in need of alcohol
- the game calculates the whole route before a pop starts to head out - which as you say is probably ressource intensive

[esbenmf]

Do not invite people before you have the infrastructure (shops, gyms, culture,..) to sustain them. That of course forces a playstyle (in the beginning of a cosmo game), but that is to be expected.

[Incrediblejimmy]

Originally posted by esbenmf:

Do not invite people before you have the infrastructure (shops, gyms, culture,..) to sustain them. That of course forces a playstyle (in the beginning of a cosmo game), but that is to be expected.

Yes, but sustaining is quite different from things like not having a pub causing a busline not to work correctly...and off course this eliminates the possibility to play with preexisting cities/settlements.

[Silent_Shadow]

Originally posted by Incrediblejimmy:

My point is that on higher difficulties it takes time to build everything, and it doesn't matter if thats a shop, a cinema, an attraction, or something else - building an attraction means a shop or cinema or pub doesn't get build early, and pops will lack that - you are always operating on partially incomplete setups, and the game should work on those. If basic mechanics don't do that, they become lategame-exclusive, which goes beyond the point of the game - which is about building stuff up, not just watching it run after its completed. Whats your point?

Seems like you are making a mountain out of a mole hill; The problem you are describing can be solved with the addition of one small, cheap building, it really isn't an issue.

For starting out, you could substitute a few needs (culture, drinking, praying) with an indoor pool (handles sport need too), and a very cheap fair ground attraction, and the shopping needs can be handled by a small shopping centre. These three buildings handle all the citizens needs (including praying) except for rare hospital visits and they are cheaper (and use less material) than a bar and cinema, so they take less time to build too.

This let's you get a town off the ground quickly if you want with only hospital visits missed (and almost nobody lingering at the station). Later on you can build the hospital, cinemas, and bars if you want to "complete your setup," or whatever.

I really don't see what is so difficult about it.

Originally posted by Incrediblejimmy:

Maybe, so? If a mechanic doesn't work or causes bugs it needs to be fixed or replaced.

I don't think it's a broken mechanic; I think it is a trade off that gives away some complexity for more processing speed and thus bigger republics. Implementing a new system or expanding the current one is going to increase the processing load per citizen, and exacerbate slow down at higher populations. That and the fact that this is only a problem when you ignore needs suggests to me that it is working as intended and not as a bug.

Originally posted by Incrediblejimmy:

I mean if you think about it we have been at the exact same problem before. [...] And when the lines got clogged with passengers not exiting vehicles, it was enough reason for the devs to build a solution. Now there are buildings with higher capacity, so the potential population in walking range from a bus station is much higher than it was in the earlier versions, so its really not hard to see why the problem is back, and needs a solution.

Not sure if I am being trolled or not, but rejoice, the solution is here: Build a train station or dock. They both can have 1500 or 1000 citizens waiting and both have road access, so buses can still use them (or you could use boats and trams, the transportation suited for high density populations). Alternatively, build more small stops; the small bus station (not the 230 citizen one) is very well suited for replacing roads in cities.

Nowadays, I think the only reason citizens don't leave the bus is when the building they wanted to visit ran out of slots (so jobs mostly, most passengers can wait outside), but you can always force them out at the stop.

Originally posted by Incrediblejimmy:

-Higher station capacities could work, but I doubt thats the way to go, because it would mean functionally endless capacity was necessary, which would eliminate the difference between stop-types

Not really, you are limited by the walking distance and residents per housing unit, and even then there is nothing stopping you from building more stations for them to walk to, or improving line frequency/capacity (remove citizens from the stations faster).

Originally posted by Incrediblejimmy:

- More option checkboxes who is allowed on the stations could work, so if there is ie no pub one can simply uncheck passengers in need of alcohol

This would be nice if performance doesn't suffer too much (it shouldn't).

Originally posted by Incrediblejimmy:

- the game calculates the whole route before a pop starts to head out - which as you say is probably ressource intensive

Sort of. Not all trips are equal:

• Trips are not planned beyond one step on foot (typically to a building for a job or free time need), but the low pedestrian range limits the buildings the game needs to check so it isn't too processor intensive. If you plan it right, you can chain pedestrian visits to other free time buildings beyond the walking range of their flat.
  
• Public transportation is planned out up to two stops (pickup station followed by either the desired building for job/need, or another transfer station), and stops after being forced off the vehicle are not planned until then.
  
• I think personal cars are the only trip with three planned stops (walk to parking lot 1, drive to parking lot 2, walk to building) and you can tell the processing demands are heavy thanks to the premature slowdown you get when you put thousands of personal cars on the road (normally another couple thousand citizens is not an issue). Even when not driving, the game must consider if citizens can reach their car too.

[Incrediblejimmy]

"For starting out, you could substitute a few needs (culture, drinking, praying) with an indoor pool "

LOl, you still don't understand the point...if you do that out of walking distance, all the pops who do not get "culture, drinking, praying" fulfilled will go to the bus stop, stand there, not enter any of the buses and prevent others from getting to the pool, or whatever you want to link first by bus.

"Not sure if I am being trolled or not, but rejoice, the solution is here: Build a train station or dock. They both can have 1500 or 1000 citizens waiting and both have road access, so buses can still use them"

Yes, there are a lot of ways to work around this bug / flawed mechanic - that doesn't make it any less of a bug though. And if you need to build a train station without trains to get your buses to work, you are clearly dealing with a bug. Thanks for finally aknowledging that.

[Pfirsich1966]

@Incrediblejimmy
Why don't others have this problem?!
Is it possible that you made a mistake and are now looking for the game's fault?
In Cosmonaut mode, you build the infrastructure first and then invite the citizens.

[Incrediblejimmy]

Originally posted by Pfirsich1966:

@Incrediblejimmy
Why don't others have this problem?!
Is it possible that you made a mistake and are now looking for the game's fault?
In Cosmonaut mode, you build the infrastructure first and then invite the citizens.

I do not have the problem - maybe read the threat. I saw what was happening, and worked around it. There are several ways to work around it, which is why I asked what you think here and did not report it as a bug in the bug report section yet, and which could be why nobody ran into it on a larger scale - allthough i do not know how you get to your claim that nobody else has the problem.

Nonetheless a key mechanic of the game does not work correctly under a certain set of circumstances. These can be avoided - but doesn't mean it works as intended, or that it shouldn't be fixed. If ie. a certain locomotive wouldn't work I can easily avoid it by using another one - doesn't mean the not-working one isn't bugged...

[Silent_Shadow]

Originally posted by Incrediblejimmy:

LOl, you still don't understand the point...if you do that out of walking distance, all the pops who do not get "culture, drinking, praying" fulfilled will go to the bus stop, stand there, not enter any of the buses and prevent others from getting to the pool, or whatever you want to link first by bus.

This is getting painful.

Citizens can ride vehicles to stops with attractions within walking distance to satisfy culture, praying, etc. They won't congregate at the station because of prayer/culture/etc. unless they recently visited all types of attractions available, so just build one for the odd prayer need and maybe build another to handle culture too, and citizens won't clog stations.

Originally posted by Incrediblejimmy:

Yes, there are a lot of ways to work around this bug / flawed mechanic - that doesn't make it any less of a bug though. And if you need to build a train station without trains to get your buses to work, you are clearly dealing with a bug. Thanks for finally aknowledging that.

I don't need massive stations to make my public transportation work, and neither do you. Just learn how to manage your citizens' needs and this stops being a problem.

[Incrediblejimmy]

"They won't congregate at the station because of prayer/culture/etc. unless they recently visited all types of attractions available"

Churches were an example, which shows your previous claim that the devs intended this effect, was made up. They do that if they lack anything.

"Just learn how to manage your citizens' needs and this stops being a problem."

If you read the threat, you'll see i worked around it before it became a problem. Doesn't change the fact that there is a bug in the game that forces me to do so.

[Incrediblejimmy]

And on a side note, for anyone who is interested: I just build a test setup , and it seems like other than some people here, the devs foresaw the problem as well, and therefore have passengers ignore the station limits - seemingly completely.

[bballjo]

This thread looks like it's going nowhere, very slowly...

OP, I don't understand why you want your bus to pickup everyone at the station if there is nowhere to take them to...fun rides aren't really a thing in this game, all passenger types have a predefined purpose.
If you really want everyone to get on for no reason set any of the following stations as a transfer station, and everyone will get on the bus, for no reason, and then get off at that transfer station, also for no reason.

Good luck.