Better map generation

[no one]

Hi, I want to start by saying I absolutely love the game. But for some reason, the map generation is at the level of a perlin noise youtube tutorial.

I've played around with the parameters in the map, and all they seem to do is change the terrain height and add very-very artifically looking lakes and hills that are clearly the result of perlin noise. Honestly, all random maps look exactly the same. Resource distribution is the same as well. For this reason, I feel the only interesting maps are the maps that people made.

I feel like this game desperately needs a better map generator. Thoughts?

[Silent_Shadow]

So long as the workshop exists, there will always be more maps than you could ever play, so I don't think a better map generator is really that important.

[Dan]

I understand the appeal of fully random maps. Workshop maps are going to be highly unpredictable in quality, challenge, etc. They typically all have hand-painted resource distributions (not that the "random" maps currently are any better - they appear to all just duplicate the same default distribution).

A well made random generator means you can start a level knowing you've got a balanced, high quality map, but otherwise knowing nothing about the landscape or resource distribution ahead of time - it allows more of a sense of gradual discovery.

I've been working on my own, because I really don't like using real-world heightmaps or hand-painted levels, which will account for most on the workshop - but it's way too hacky and confined to a pro VFX package, so it's not exactly viable for me to distribute.
The biggest fiddle making my own random maps is the need to hand-place customs posts and any roads/rails leading to them from the border.
I have got a prototype of a system that distributes resources in seams along rock strata in the landscape, rather than just splatting them around randomly.

If I get it tuned up a bit, I may put together a couple of "random map packs" for the workshop or something.

[whisper]

I would definitely appreciate a random map generator that could make mountains that actually look like mountains.

[Dan]

To some extent, I can see why it doesn't happen... in this, skylines, transport fever, or anything else. Terrain with drainage modelling, river formation, hydraulic and thermal erosion, sediment entrainment/deposition, etc, etc, is not only outrageously computationally expensive (my hack-job setup runs about 5 minutes to simulate some simple hydraulic/thermal erosion on a single 2k terrain), but it's pretty much a whole R&D subject in its own right - I could pour years into it if had the chance, just to understand it enough to build something competent. A developer could probably spend as much budget on a good map generator as they would on the entire game if they wanted to do it well.

It'd be nice if someone came up with some really solid middleware solution exclusively for game map generation.

[TheLeaf]

Yep agreed. I wish vanilla-generated maps were better lol. Rivers look too unnatural and there should be an option to raise the amount of resources of the map.

[Catsander]

Originally posted by Silent_Shadow:

So long as the workshop exists, there will always be more maps than you could ever play, so I don't think a better map generator is really that important.

As long as that is not an excuse for removing the current random map generator I could agree. But it would be really sad if there were no map generator and you'd have to rely on maps from the workshop.

[Krougal]

I would still like a better map generator, My main gripe is there are too many lakes and no rivers or sea. Go use someone else's map off the workshop is not an acceptable answer, it is just making an excuse.

[no one]

Originally posted by Krougal:

I would still like a better map generator, My main gripe is there are too many lakes and no rivers or sea. Go use someone else's map off the workshop is not an acceptable answer, it is just making an excuse.

This is exactly my point as well. The fact that people make maps in their free time for a game they like is no excuse for the game itself to not have a good map generation.

Originally posted by Dan:

I understand the appeal of fully random maps. Workshop maps are going to be highly unpredictable in quality, challenge, etc. They typically all have hand-painted resource distributions (not that the "random" maps currently are any better - they appear to all just duplicate the same default distribution).

A well made random generator means you can start a level knowing you've got a balanced, high quality map, but otherwise knowing nothing about the landscape or resource distribution ahead of time - it allows more of a sense of gradual discovery.

I've been working on my own, because I really don't like using real-world heightmaps or hand-painted levels, which will account for most on the workshop - but it's way too hacky and confined to a pro VFX package, so it's not exactly viable for me to distribute.
The biggest fiddle making my own random maps is the need to hand-place customs posts and any roads/rails leading to them from the border.
I have got a prototype of a system that distributes resources in seams along rock strata in the landscape, rather than just splatting them around randomly.

If I get it tuned up a bit, I may put together a couple of "random map packs" for the workshop or something.

As Dan pointed out, the maps on the workshop will vary wildly in quality and difficulty. Some people prefer abundant resources, some sparse. Some people will be better at making fun maps, other people better at more realistic but maybe less fun maps. There really should be a way to setup a map you know is balanced for the game and will be fun to play, and as difficult as you want it to be.

Originally posted by Dan:

To some extent, I can see why it doesn't happen... in this, skylines, transport fever, or anything else. Terrain with drainage modelling, river formation, hydraulic and thermal erosion, sediment entrainment/deposition, etc, etc, is not only outrageously computationally expensive (my hack-job setup runs about 5 minutes to simulate some simple hydraulic/thermal erosion on a single 2k terrain), but it's pretty much a whole R&D subject in its own right - I could pour years into it if had the chance, just to understand it enough to build something competent. A developer could probably spend as much budget on a good map generator as they would on the entire game if they wanted to do it well.

It'd be nice if someone came up with some really solid middleware solution exclusively for game map generation.

I know what you mean, I like reading up on terrain generation algorithms and they can get quite complicated. I think going as far as doing realistic erosion and the like is an overkill for a game map, and as you mentioned, making realistic terrains can take years of work is probably not needed.

But as I mentioned in my post, the current algorithm is overly simplistic and can easily be improved. Adding ocean access wouldn't be too hard. Games like Rimword and Song of Syx do it. Adding proper mountain ranges wouldn't be too hard. Perlin noise is good for heightmaps, but it doesn't generate anything that looks like mountains. Again, there are existing algorithms that can make this happen. Also making the borders of the map not a square would be nice.

On top of these, you could introduce something like the Minecraft biomes to decide which parts of the map have which resources. You can have areas that are heavily foreseted, areas with a lot of fossile fuel deposits (coal, oil) etc. Then you can distribute however many resources the player configured in these biomes.

This is just off the top of my head, I am sure with some more reasearch, there are a lot more easy improvements.

[Dan]

Yes, it's a fair point... there are still reasonable mid-points between something that outputs highly believable looking terrain, and the super-basic stopgap generator as exists now.

Interestingly, the terrain editor itself already contains a hydraulic erosion/deposition system, it's just only usable as a manual tool where you hold the mouse button down, rather than something you can specify exact parameters to and hit "Apply"... but they've clearly already done some work on more complex terrain generation.

The map generator currently being as extremely basic as it is leads me to believe it really is just a placeholder currently, and they probably are working on a better one.

I suspect one of the bigger difficulties in a map generator here would be working out a watertight algorithm to pathfind road/rail connections from the edges to the customs houses along complex terrain... the current approach only just works on flat terrain, and pretty much breaks the moment there are some smooth hills in the way. I've never tried it, but I presume writing a pathfinder that will connect contiguous spline segments correctly over complex terrain within slope limits and curvature limits would be a nightmare to get working consistently.
That said, Transport Fever did a pretty solid job of it for roads, so clearly it's possible... although rail would be even harder because it has to stay within tighter elevation-change constraints, and junctions can't be abrupt 90° angles.

[Oren The Mountain Biker]

Originally posted by Silent_Shadow:

So long as the workshop exists, there will always be more maps than you could ever play, so I don't think a better map generator is really that important.

A better map generator is the most important thing in any game that ever esisted. There's nothing to do in the game, if you do it in a map that people have played before you did.

If you make a better map generator, I'll buy this game twice

[DailyDoseOfStress]

Delete and try again, no seriously, the thread not the map.