Huge cities and traffic jams

[Dr Alban]

Hey gamers and devs! I've got a question that comes from a problem Im facing. Quick intro: Im a pretty advanced Cities: Skylines player, specializing in building massive, super-dense cities that cover the entire map. When I say "cities," I really mean "metropolises" with almost no free space.

So, Ive been trying to build similarly in Workers & Resources: Soviet Republic. After about 110 hours of gameplay, I'm starting to realize that it might be impossible in this game. Even with advanced traffic simulation and tweaking every intersection with traffic signs and signals, personal cars cause massive traffic jams. Turning off advanced traffic simulation doesn't help either; the jams just move to different spots. Personal cars are essential for residents to commute from the huge city to factories far outside the city.

i also use public transport, like buses, but it works as expected: more personal cars mean fewer public transport users. This would be fine if not for the huge traffic jams. I've tried various solutions like roundabouts and one-way streets, but 1,200 car owners out of 16,000 citizens create nearly unsolvable traffic problems. I’ve noticed that parking lots cause most of the congestion, and no matter how I build, the issue remains. Without parking lots, there are no personal cars.

So, my final question is: is it even possible to build large metropolises in this game, or will traffic jams always ruin it, making it necessary to completely abandon personal cars? Or should I just make small towns or villages relatively close to each other instead? I get that its set in old times with poverty and all, but I'm a bit disappointed if the game strictly limits the way you can play :(

[bballjo]

It's very possible to make large metros, but you will have to account for traffic limitations...make use of the signage and make dedicated corridors for your different types of vehicles. Id also recommend of using the isolated transport modes like trams only roads and subways/trains to elevate some of the traffic.

In terms of personal cars, they are very inferior means of transport, as they only allow 1 person at a time, and parking space is never enough...you could compromise by using cars as "busses" and have a lot of those in your City, it will at least create the illusion of more traffic, and you can run those with some personal cars.

[keng]

The game doesn't limit you in any way. If you want to build a metropolis, then from day one you must plan it. Including road traffic. Three, four, five redundant roads in each direction? Why not if this solves the issue. After all, you want a metropolis, right?
But in fact, further you will encounter even more problems that are no longer related to traffic. For example, with the import of food and goods and the removal of thousands of tons of garbage outside the huge city. To do this, you need to plan in advance and think through the railway freight terminals in the city itself. A large network of storage and distribution centers.
And what about heating? The heating plant must be located no closer than 700 meters from the nearest houses, otherwise it will kill your population with its toxic emissions. But no further than 1700 meters, otherwise all the heat will be lost in the pipes and your population will escape from the ice city.
I would say that you took on the most difficult task without sufficient experience. First, try to establish life, production and supplies in several small cities (5-6 on the map). Then build a large city, a capital, connected with these smaller cities. While you do this, you will learn to solve problems and plan infrastructure in advance. I think after 5-10 attempts you will feel the strength to build a metropolis.
This is not a game where you can gain experience in 100-200-300 hours. Good luck!

[Dr Alban]

Originally posted by bballjo:

It's very possible to make large metros, but you will have to account for traffic limitations...make use of the signage and make dedicated corridors for your different types of vehicles. Id also recommend of using the isolated transport modes like trams only roads and subways/trains to elevate some of the traffic.

In terms of personal cars, they are very inferior means of transport, as they only allow 1 person at a time, and parking space is never enough...you could compromise by using cars as "busses" and have a lot of those in your City, it will at least create the illusion of more traffic, and you can run those with some personal cars.

thanks for the reply, but unfortunately, Ive already tried following your suggestions. I even made separate roads just for specific types of vehicles, but it didnt change much. It usually only solves the problem temporarily. I think the main issue is that there are always too few personal vehicles compared to the maximum population, which is unrealistic.

ive also noticed that the biggest traffic jams happen at night when people are returning from work outside the city. It takes them all night to get to a parking spot, get out of it, and reach their destination. In the end, the traffic is too heavy compared to the number of personal cars.

Transport hubs dont seem to work either. Why is it that if there’s a train station fairly close to the city with bus and possibly metro connections, people don’t use public transport to get there or leave their cars in a designated parking lot to take the train to another station far from the city?

[keng]

Originally posted by Dr Alban:

I think the main issue is that there are always too few personal vehicles compared to the maximum population, which is unrealistic.

Of course, every city resident will want to have their own car. So, if you plan to build a city for 50,000 people, be prepared for the fact that all 50,000 will want to ride in their own cars.
Whether you allow them to do this or not is up to you.

Why is it that if there’s a train station fairly close to the city with bus and possibly metro connections, people don’t use public transport to get there or leave their cars in a designated parking lot to take the train to another station far from the city?

The citizens of our republics are quite stupid. But they have a wise leader who must explain to them where to go, where to get on the bus, where to get off the bus, where to get on the train and at what station to get out.

[bspawn]

Originally posted by Dr Alban:

Originally posted by bballjo:

It's very possible to make large metros, but you will have to account for traffic limitations...

In terms of personal cars, they are very inferior means of transport,

thanks for the reply, but unfortunately, Ive already tried following your suggestions.

Bballjo is basically saying: yes it is possible to build very large cities - but without a lot of personal cars.
So the answer to you question is essentially "no".

WRSR is really a different game than CS, with much more emphasis on industrial logistics including transport of workers, and a greater reliance on mass transport if you want to build big.
(In part because of that) WRSR does not have several of the traffic management facilities that CS has: no real multi-lane roads/highways (you can make a two lane road one way but that hardly counts and is rarely necessary), no dedicated turn lanes, no lane pre-selection, no "no turn" road signs. Some of that can be hacked in with single direction single lane roads but that's finicky at best.

Workers' happiness (and loyalty and productivity) is negatively affected by traveling long distances (longer than ~3 to 4 km, 6km already has a very noticeable effect), in that respect is better to have multiple separate cities than to have one very large city.

*Very different than CS*, in WRSR industry complexes (including associated service buildings) are generally very large compared to the size of a city needed to supply enough workers to those industries, so you don't naturally get cities growing into one large metropolis - unless you have workers travel long distances.
Probably the closest thing to a metropolis you can get without sacrificing too much efficiency, is a long relatively thin city with industries on both sides. Using public transport you have control over which part of the city supplies workers to nearby industries, with personal cars they'll probably travel all over the place.

To get smooth transport of workers out of even a modest size city (20k or so) to large industries outside the city, requires multi-platform(more than 2) train stations with multiple dedicated 1-way-tracks. It still works with a smaller station with only two 1-way tracks, but it will be a bottleneck that prohibits a steady supply of workers to outside industries, which reduces industry efficiency.

[Dr Alban]

Originally posted by keng:

Originally posted by Dr Alban:

I think the main issue is that there are always too few personal vehicles compared to the maximum population, which is unrealistic.

Of course, every city resident will want to have their own car. So, if you plan to build a city for 50,000 people, be prepared for the fact that all 50,000 will want to ride in their own cars.
Whether you allow them to do this or not is up to you.

Why is it that if there’s a train station fairly close to the city with bus and possibly metro connections, people don’t use public transport to get there or leave their cars in a designated parking lot to take the train to another station far from the city?

The citizens of our republics are quite stupid. But they have a wise leader who must explain to them where to go, where to get on the bus, where to get off the bus, where to get on the train and at what station to get out.

Originally posted by bspawn:

Originally posted by Dr Alban:

thanks for the reply, but unfortunately, Ive already tried following your suggestions.

Bballjo is basically saying: yes it is possible to build very large cities - but without a lot of personal cars.
So the answer to you question is essentially "no".

WRSR is really a different game than CS, with much more emphasis on industrial logistics including transport of workers, and a greater reliance on mass transport if you want to build big.
(In part because of that) WRSR does not have several of the traffic management facilities that CS has: no real multi-lane roads/highways (you can make a two lane road one way but that hardly counts and is rarely necessary), no dedicated turn lanes, no lane pre-selection, no "no turn" road signs. Some of that can be hacked in with single direction single lane roads but that's finicky at best.

Workers' happiness (and loyalty and productivity) is negatively affected by traveling long distances (longer than ~3 to 4 km, 6km already has a very noticeable effect), in that respect is better to have multiple separate cities than to have one very large city.

*Very different than CS*, in WRSR industry complexes (including associated service buildings) are generally very large compared to the size of a city needed to supply enough workers to those industries, so you don't naturally get cities growing into one large metropolis - unless you have workers travel long distances.
Probably the closest thing to a metropolis you can get without sacrificing too much efficiency, is a long relatively thin city with industries on both sides. Using public transport you have control over which part of the city supplies workers to nearby industries, with personal cars they'll probably travel all over the place.

To get smooth transport of workers out of even a modest size city (20k or so) to large industries outside the city, requires multi-platform(more than 2) train stations with multiple dedicated 1-way-tracks. It still works with a smaller station with only two 1-way tracks, but it will be a bottleneck that prohibits a steady supply of workers to outside industries, which reduces industry efficiency.

even though I mentioned this in my first post, i need to really stress that when you're building cities in CS that aim for a population of 1 million and up, planning is super important. this includes even the tiniest details like a meter of pedestrian sidewalk or a single tree. With this experience in mind, I tried to apply the same approach in WRSR. I get the feeling that the game has a set simulation pattern that isnt quite realistic. the best proof of this is what I read here: https://workers-resources.fandom.com/wiki/Traffic_simulation

According to that, vehicles look for the fastest possible route without considering anything else. This seems to be true because even if I build 10 roads in different directions, vehicles still get stuck in parking lots. Lets say a residential block has about 80 residents, so I build at least two parking lots with a capacity of 30 each. There's no way the cars won't get jammed because there have to be more blocks and parking lots.

Also, I've noticed in the most populated cities that from point A to point B, there's a line of cars along the entire length of the road, which could be 500 meters, 2 kilometers, or even 8. The more population and cars = the more cars lined up one after another, blocking the road all the way - this matches with the link I sent because they force themselves onto one road without considering other factors.

As for the rest of the planning, i'll highlight that theres absolutely no problem. Even large amounts of public and cargo transport work fine. The issue arises with personal cars, which really bums me out because I dont see the point in centralizing everything in a huge city and not using personal cars at the same time. It really hurts me :(

[Silent_Shadow]

The game isn't really set up to handle large amounts of cars because the road mechanics are somewhat crude. The extra processing needed for car pathfinding will also kill your FPS, so do not aim for too high a population. If you really want personal cars, then consider giving them only to university educated citizens and set up your parking so that only jobs that need a university education can be reached by cars.

Mass parking for cars works best when you have a stretch of road they can enter and wait in to park instead of backing up into intersections. I like to use the 16 car parking lots because you can have a line of them with a one-way road on one side for entering the parking lot and another on the other side for leaving it. If you keep the road directions going counter-clockwise, then drivers looking to park will enter the left lane to turn in while the rest stay on the right and pass them.

The biggest cause of traffic in this game is intersection design, followed by mixing in slower vehicles like slow trucks or buses, and then personal car selection:

• Ideally you would create roads such that cars never need to pass through an intersection, but this is unrealistic, so you should aim to reduce the number that goes through each intersection instead. There are a few different tricks you can use to increase intersection throughput (turning lanes, bypass lanes, synchronized lights, etc.), but you are really better off just building more roads instead of creating bigger arterial roads.
  
  
• Road and intersection throughput is limited by the slower vehicles, so try to segregate personal cars and trucks/buses to separate roads. Personal cars have very high top speeds and power to weight ratios, so much more of them can clear an intersection in the same amount of time than if a truck or bus is also using the same road. The only exceptions are the tiny trucks and vans like the FZK A07 or the B1000, which can be used to deliver small amounts of goods to shops, bars, hotels, and treatment plants without disrupting traffic too much, because they have top speeds and acceleration that are comparable to personal cars.
  
  
• Higher end personal cars have higher top speeds and more power, which means more of them can clear an intersection in a given time, but these are more expensive and require more fuel to run (but not that much fuel; a single fuel refinery can easily supply over 200,000 cars). Top speed also affects how fast a road vehicle can take a corner or curve, which helps keep throughput at intersections high.

I think I have the best guide on personal cars if you want to know some more tricks for using them, like extending the distance citizens can reach with them or ensuring workplaces are fully staffed via cars:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2840936507

[Novu]

Originally posted by Dr Alban:

, but 1,200 car owners out of 16,000 citizens create nearly unsolvable traffic problems. I’ve noticed that parking lots cause most of the congestion, and no matter how I build, the issue remains. Without parking lots, there are no personal cars.

So, my final question is: is it even possible to build large metropolises in this game, or will traffic jams always ruin it, making it necessary to completely abandon personal cars?

I have built cities with 70,000 population and 2000 car owners before and there are no traffic issues. The solution is just to turn off the damn traffic lights. They are unrealistic anyway. The lights stay red for 1hr of simulated time which is what causes the traffic jams. Set the traffic simulation to "simple" and the lights will disappear.

Modded buildings will help if you really want a huge population.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3059563760

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2642436768

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2438482060

[Novu]

If you are worried about fuel costs there are also electric cars.

https://steamcommunity.com/workshop/filedetails/?id=2908132693

[Zizo]

Just small reminderr, we have 2 line roads, but vehicles still do not use both lines properly, they do sometimes, but in some situations eventhough they could use second line and continue, they will not :) for none reason.


Second, water and sevage water is toootaly different beast than in CS where is like almost "non existing":)

And third: good luck with FPS with one huge city, not even talking about to build city big as whole map 😁 This game is not build to make that happen.

[whisper]

Trying to rely entirely or even primarily on personal cars is a recipe for pain in this game. In fairness to the devs, it doesn't work great IRL either.

[Silent_Shadow]

You can also split the difference and only use personal cars for free time needs or for work.

[bspawn]

Originally posted by Dr Alban:

when you're building cities in CS that aim for a population of 1 million and up, planning is super important. ...
With this experience in mind, I tried to apply the same approach in WRSR. I get the feeling that the game has a set simulation pattern that isnt quite realistic.
...The issue arises with personal cars, which really bums me out because I dont see the point in centralizing everything in a huge city and not using personal cars at the same time. It really hurts me :(

Any simulation is only an approximation of reality, and different implementations have different strengths and weaknesses. No doubt traffic simulation is not WRSR's strength.
At any rate, different strengths and weaknesses require different planning. Even with better traffic simulation WRSR is not suited for having everything centralizing in a huge city, for reasons i mentioned in my previous post.

I'll add one point: using personal cars, an industry complex that requires 1000 workers (not insanely large by WRSR standards), would have traffic from 1000 cars 3 times per day and require parking space for 1000 cars.
The same relative production capacity in CS would have a fraction of that amount of traffic, in part because it does not actually show traffic from all citizens, and in part because the size and worker capacity of industry is unrealistically small.

Another way to put it is that the scale of WRSR is different than CS, kind of like how the scale of The Settlers or Banished is different: residential centers are smaller, it's not a 1-to-1 scale with reality.
The gameworld of WRSR is not city-sized but is country-sized, and you can/'are supposed to' build multiple cities (small cities compared to reality) in your country.
Also the scale is deceptive: as far as citizens are concerned distances are much larger than it looks to you. If you go by the game's calendar time, traveling 4 km to work takes them like 3 days, and they don't really like doing that whether it's by public transport or personal car.

[anok_peace]

Originally posted by bspawn:

Originally posted by Dr Alban:

when you're building cities in CS that aim for a population of 1 million and up, planning is super important. ...
With this experience in mind, I tried to apply the same approach in WRSR. I get the feeling that the game has a set simulation pattern that isnt quite realistic.
...The issue arises with personal cars, which really bums me out because I dont see the point in centralizing everything in a huge city and not using personal cars at the same time. It really hurts me :(

Any simulation is only an approximation of reality, and different implementations have different strengths and weaknesses. No doubt traffic simulation is not WRSR's strength.
At any rate, different strengths and weaknesses require different planning. Even with better traffic simulation WRSR is not suited for having everything centralizing in a huge city, for reasons i mentioned in my previous post.

I'll add one point: using personal cars, an industry complex that requires 1000 workers (not insanely large by WRSR standards), would have traffic from 1000 cars 3 times per day and require parking space for 1000 cars.
The same relative production capacity in CS would have a fraction of that amount of traffic, in part because it does not actually show traffic from all citizens, and in part because the size and worker capacity of industry is unrealistically small.

Another way to put it is that the scale of WRSR is different than CS, kind of like how the scale of The Settlers or Banished is different: residential centers are smaller, it's not a 1-to-1 scale with reality.
The gameworld of WRSR is not city-sized but is country-sized, and you can/'are supposed to' build multiple cities (small cities compared to reality) in your country.
Also the scale is deceptive: as far as citizens are concerned distances are much larger than it looks to you. If you go by the game's calendar time, traveling 4 km to work takes them like 3 days, and they don't really like doing that whether it's by public transport or personal car.

I have to disagree here. Many maps from the workshop can certainly be played as a region with a large city. This fits much better to the scale of the map and the buildings.
I have been building a city for a long time that now has over 100,000 inhabitants. Some 100 of them also have a car to have a bit of traffic on the streets. However, I can't do more than that, and I can only advise against supplying entire industries with workers. On the one hand, of course, because of the performance problems mentioned and because of the problems with traffic management. On the other hand, the capacity utilization will be worse because the jobs on the long journeys are already occupied. WRSR works best with public transportation, in the socialist states there were nowhere near as many cars, which is simulated here within the limitations of the game.

[Silent_Shadow]

There is a way to get car owners to drive to work without reserving the job, but it comes at the cost of 3 to 4 parking spots per job slot and is definitely not a beginner subject.