The runaway cost of steel and Electronics

[nevryn]

I'm playing on the Northern Canada map, with Researchs, waste management, sewage, water, etc in realistic mode. Im nearly 20 years in, just about have a functioning city but am still 1000 workers short of being able to run the industries I have in a reasonable manner (current poulation 3500).
If you know the map then the closest resource, which is coal is 1/3 the way across the map from the starting location, and iron and oil are way out on the islands 2/3 the way across the map.
I'm exporting everything I can boards,bricks, alcohol, food, clothes, bitumen, cement, but am still running at a 300,000rub loss per year primarily due to the costs of steel, electronics, electrical and mechanical componets, and the 'ghost' purchaser of fuel (all my gas stations are suppplied from my own refinary and I have no way of finding the ghost, the game simply won't tell me).
I can't even think about opening up coal production because I simply don't have the workforce, and establishing a second small settlement to resource that with workers is out of the question, let alone trying to get to the point where I could even think about expanding to get to the iron and coal.
I watched Steven Silverbeards series, done just after the seasons update, and he barely managed it, but that was before any of the requirements for water, sewage, and waste were introduced (crime also didn't appear to be as significant an issue as it is now). As it is I'm having to drop about 70% of the mixed wasted into a dump because I don't have the workforce to process it.
It seems that the whole economic model is broken and that the whole game hinges on having iron ore and coal right under the starting location and having steel production unlocked at the start. At least then you only have to worry about the runaway cost of the electonics and two components.

[GoRun]

Economic model is too easy. You are wasting money and workforce somewhere. Clothes and bitumen is good export, scale up and import oil, coal, iron... Tourism can help but you need to export waste or burn it. Mining makes too much waste and uses too much workforce. 3000 workers is only 1000 workers in 1 shift for everything.
Find 'ghost' purchaser with overlay option. You can see where is fuel moving.

[Zero, Dark Knight]

So just make a steel mill, I know you said you can't run them in a "reasonable" way.
but that doesn't mean you can't run them "at all".

It's not that expensive a building and if it's what's the most beneficial to you right now, you'll find a way to make it work.

[Silent_Shadow]

Originally posted by nevryn:

the 'ghost' purchaser of fuel (all my gas stations are suppplied from my own refinary and I have no way of finding the ghost, the game simply won't tell me).

Assuming you are talking about auto-buying fuel, then if you enable the "fuel" overlay found under the "resources" tab of the overlay menu, the game will display the amount of fuel each building is storing as well as the ruble or dollar icon if it is on auto-buy. You can use this overlay to find the "ghost" purchaser.

If you have city-halls/accounting-offices, then you can get a list of all imports for that area, which should show fuel under "Imports" (click on it) if it were on auto-buy or if there is a customs house where fuel gets bought at.

Clicking on customs houses will also show the lines that interface with it, check the lines with oil trucks to see if fuel is set to be imported, then check RDOs to see if they can get fuel from a customs house.

Originally posted by nevryn:

It seems that the whole economic model is broken and that the whole game hinges on having iron ore and coal right under the starting location and having steel production unlocked at the start. At least then you only have to worry about the runaway cost of the electonics and two components.

Sorry, but that isn't the case. Construction industries are not good investments for profit (they each have to make over 1000 tons of material to be made before they break even) or even replacing imports so long as your customs houses are not too congested. Try starting with a clothes factory, then build a fabric factory, a food factory, an explosives factory, a distillery, and oil wells. With a little research, you can get more profitable industries like bauxite mining, chemicals, electrical components factory, mechanical components factory, a refinery, etc.

You should also try to minimize your costs; start with smaller/fewer vehicles as you can, invite third world immigrants with dollars and send them to school (or if education is on simple, send them straight to work), and don't build things you don't need, like asphalt roads (early on they aren't really useful) or a lot of construction offices (if your construction vehicles just sit around most of the time, you got too many vehicles and COs).

[Beast of War]

Originally posted by Zero, Dark Knight:

So just make a steel mill, I know you said you can't run them in a "reasonable" way.
but that doesn't mean you can't run them "at all".

This. And it goes for any final product that is too expensive to keep importing. Just import the raw materials and craft these final product yourself. Much cheaper.

It would be smart building those factories to keep in mind that later on you will be producing your won raw materials so you have room to unload them in larger quantities near your factories. So even selecting the location and keeping space for train unloading facilities or even a port would be smart.

The only final product that is really needed in large quantities that does not work this way is chemicals. I never seem to be able to quit importing the stuff, unless i make a small city to support 10 of these chemical factories clustered together, which is a far greater undertaking then supporting 1 steel factory.

[nevryn]

Originally posted by Silent_Shadow:

Clicking on customs houses will also show the lines that interface with it, check the lines with oil trucks to see if fuel is set to be imported, then check RDOs to see if they can get fuel from a customs house.

I have only one RDO that has fuel tankers and it is set to export bitumen and import oil..
It distributes fuel to gas stations and buildings.

Originally posted by Silent_Shadow:

Sorry, but that isn't the case. Construction industries are not good investments for profit (they each have to make over 1000 tons of material to be made before they break even) or even replacing imports so long as your customs houses are not too congested. Try starting with a clothes factory, then build a fabric factory, a food factory, an explosives factory, a distillery, and oil wells. With a little research, you can get more profitable industries like bauxite mining, chemicals, electrical components factory, mechanical components factory, a refinery, etc.

I did start with clothes and food.. everything else is locked behind research.

Can't build oil wells, the closest oil is 2/3 the way across the map, across a 1km stretch of water..
Coal is the closest, then bauxite (and yes I now have unlocked the research for this).

Originally posted by Silent_Shadow:

You should also try to minimize your costs; start with smaller/fewer vehicles as you can, invite third world immigrants with dollars and send them to school (or if education is on simple, send them straight to work), and don't build things you don't need, like asphalt roads (early on they aren't really useful) or a lot of construction offices (if your construction vehicles just sit around most of the time, you got too many vehicles and COs).

All my major roads are gravel .. its the only thing I can build for free... Asphalt is a luxuary I can't afford, so I don't even have an aspahlt plant. The only thing its used for is bus stops and factory crossings. And yes I have tried to minimise my costs..

[janoRES]

Hello, from my side i am now doing a playthrough where i produce only the high end products (clothes, fabrics, chems, electronics, steel, nuclear fuel cars, trains and boats). i am just importing the raw materials on ships so basically i have 0 mines :) its very easy and financially sustainable

[Krossof]

Originally posted by Zero, Dark Knight:

So just make a steel mill, I know you said you can't run them in a "reasonable" way.
but that doesn't mean you can't run them "at all".

It's not that expensive a building and if it's what's the most beneficial to you right now, you'll find a way to make it work. :spacepony:

if he has maintaince on, that is a terrible advice.

A Steel mill is a expensive building and running it with only 10% capa can be a loss considering the import of raw and the maintaince of all vehicles and buildings nessecary.

[Silent_Shadow]

Originally posted by nevryn:

I did start with clothes and food.. everything else is locked behind research.

Can't build oil wells, the closest oil is 2/3 the way across the map, across a 1km stretch of water..
Coal is the closest, then bauxite (and yes I now have unlocked the research for this).

I'd say a technical university is more important than the small party HQ for this reason. Not only does it give you enough capacity to teach students, it also allows you to get to more profitable industries like chemicals or bauxite quickly. You should still be able to build an explosives factory if you need more cash though; it doesn't need research.

That oil field can still be exploited with a small harbor and a tanker. You can use a Helicopter CO to quickly build the harbor and oil wells, or you can build a temporary and very cheap wooden bridge across the water to provide road access to COs. Since you have a refinery, you could decrease your oil imports and export more fuel, but you'll need a decent amount of money for the tanker ships.

[MG83]

boards,bricks, alcohol, food, clothes, bitumen
theses are profit items but be careful about boards. generally 1 employer is enough for wood chop and sawmill. rest is sort of escessive.

be careful with cement export if you export via truck it might be issue.

Also if you export everything via truck and use fuel from refinery and if you are buying oil this might be issue also. in time oil price will increase and export of bitumen will cause bitumen price to lower thus will result in profit gap to get small.

[MG83]

Originally posted by Silent_Shadow:

technical university is more important than the small party HQ for this reason.

Both is utmost importance due to red star monument. All population must be in reach of red star monument else their loyalty may get below % 20 and will cause critical issues.

[Zero, Dark Knight]

Originally posted by Krossof:

Originally posted by Zero, Dark Knight:

So just make a steel mill, I know you said you can't run them in a "reasonable" way.
but that doesn't mean you can't run them "at all".

It's not that expensive a building and if it's what's the most beneficial to you right now, you'll find a way to make it work.

if he has maintaince on, that is a terrible advice.

A Steel mill is a expensive building and running it with only 10% capa can be a loss considering the import of raw and the maintaince of all vehicles and buildings nessecary.

it's hardly terrible advice, you're the one assuming 10% effectiveness.
but if Steel is so valuable, then he could swap his workforce off the production of bricks, boards, cement etc to such a degree that he's okay importing iron and coal.

You're making assumptions.
I'm making assumptions.

So if my advice is awful for my assumptions that he can't financially sustain imports and usage of it.

then your advice is also awful for your assumptions he won't make better of the Steelmill than 10%.

but which one is more likely? that he'll make better use of it than 10%. or that he'll let it rot and decay when his city needs a lot of steel?

[nevryn]

Originally posted by MG83:

Originally posted by Silent_Shadow:

technical university is more important than the small party HQ for this reason.

Both is utmost importance due to red star monument. All population must be in reach of red star monument else their loyalty may get below % 20 and will cause critical issues.

I don't have a 'red star' monument.. and my loyalty is 44%

[Silent_Shadow]

Yeah, you don't need the red star monument; it is just convenient for giving an area monument coverage instead of building 4 or 5 monuments.

[Walta Gaming]

You can always go to the workshop and look for small steel mill mods.

Otherwise I find cutting steel costs to the minimum to be the best play. I found tourism to be a good industry since the buildings can be built mostly with stone byproducts. Planes mostly cost aluminium so they wont pull the steel price up further. Focus on food and meat after that to increase the profits of your existing tourism industry. Also use trains as much as you can for bulk industries so you dont have to spend a fortune on vehicles.

[Joy Giver]

you can invite labor thou