Research is all very well but..

[kessie51]

The introduction of Research was a very good idea, but means our Republic does not enjoy any research from the Soviet Union. In which case we must have some really clever people, yet we're still dependent on other "more advanced" areas until we've done research which logic says they must have done already. It doesn't make sense....

If the Soviets and the West already know how to do stuff how about some industrial espionage to advance our Research?

I'm sure it could be made quicker and cheaper to spy than to just research, but with some risk element for jeopardy (temporary import price levy or even a ban is my suggestion)... Possibly increase both the potential risks and rewards if we choose to spy on the West?

AND... If we're so good at research why can't we research more things, like designing our own vehicles (all types) and save the cost of those pesky licences?

Someone is probably going to say research cost money too but we need to have the universities anyway, we can't just demolish them (can we?) So why not use them? We could even base our industrial spies there as part of the "Research Teams"...

I promise not to claim copyright if any similar update should turn up in future.

[melkij]

Just look at the required workdays for research. Chemicals? 1200 workdays = just one person, working 5 days a week, will discover and research all possible chemicals from nothing - in just 5 years? Funny.

We have access to all technologies used. For such a ridiculous period, it is realistic to prepare a technological map of production and a plan of the building itself. Not fundamental scientific research.

[Melange]

My problem with research is... I researched everything before I needed it ... So it has not effect on my gameplay besides I built universities quite early... One exception is the distribution office ... Which is very important from the beginning

[Gfurst]

Originally posted by kessie51:

but means our Republic does not enjoy any research from the Soviet Union. In which case we must have some really clever people, yet we're still dependent on other "more advanced" areas until we've done research which logic says they must have done already. It doesn't make sense....

That's basically the world's 20th century in a nutshell. Both the US and Soviets during the cold war, extensively exerted their influence by leveraging their technological prowess.

Also its not like in 5 guys in a year will discover the secrets of metalurgy for you republic alone, it took thousands of years of knowledge to get where we are now, so I always just inferred that research is just actually studying that technology abroad, adapting and learning so you can your own stuff in the country, also why your learn the factory lines and buying plans from existing vehicles.

They're not reinventing the wheels, and that way its lot closer to how the spread of industrialisation actually happened.

[kessie51]

Originally posted by Melange:

My problem with research is... I researched everything before I needed it ... So it has not effect on my gameplay besides I built universities quite early... One exception is the distribution office ... Which is very important from the beginning

I get the feeling that is likely to happen a lot, given the amount of time needed to have the finances, etc, to build a lot of the industries, research probably would be complete well in advance.. I guess it gives the university something to do *shrug*

It just seems a weird concept to have to research things that are already universally known - especially when your society is apparently so backward you aren't capable of designing a vehicle - not even a moped!

[ling.speed]

I like to look at it like this:

We are already being helped by soviet block friends that have the technologies implemented. The "research" time needed is the engineering part that needs to be performed to prepare the technology to be used in our republic. From picking right sites, training staff, adjusting the technology to use different materials / production techniques etc that are more readily avilable in our place.

The times where "idea" was the hard part passed many centuries ago. Today its all about implementation. In fact if you go to technical university today there are plenty of projects they are working on, projects that seem mundane for layman but are crucial to actually putting ideas into reality. Its a work that needs to be done regardless of how common the technology is.

[Nationality]

My interpretation of research, along with other people here, is that you're not "discovering" something but learning about something from someone else. You're learning implementations and applications rather than doing novel research.

That said, I don't like how research works. I think it's unrealistic. In real life, if you are a nation that wants to break into nuclear science, it is not enough to have professors study nuclear science for a few years. You need a stable of full-time experts and specialists to administer the program from start to end, and to disseminate knowledge and ensure proper application. I'd much rather have technologies gated behind "ministries", e.g. nuclear science would require its own ministry building which has to be supplied with a certain number of educated workers to function. Or, at least gated behind a population threshold. The lack of higher level bureaucracy is something the game is missing.

Beyond the very beginning of the game, it is easy enough to get most of the research you need done, so it doesn't add much to later game challenges (and the early game is challenging enough). So while I do like the feature, I think it could have been done better.

[kessie51]

None of the "answers" so far have addressed the main issues, just concentrated on my brief overview of the "story so far" to point out my "mistakes".
Mainly why can't we "research" our way in to stuff as basic as designing a vehicle instead of having to buy licences?? Trains, planes and automobiles all follow the same basic concepts that have already been done elsewhere, same as aluminium production, and so on. We don't need to be rich or clever enough to improve on them, but surely coming up with new ways to put things together shouldn't be beyond imagination?
It only needs to be a very limited number of vehicles - eg one type of car, one type of plane, ship, loco, etc.. Maybe introduce a new type every 20-30 years if we're really going to get serious about it.. Given all the emphasis on "reality" in the petty minutiae of the rest of the game (I never imagined Soviet leaders were responsible for making sure water ran downhill) this seems a huge gap in social-economic development that needs to be filled,

[pzkpfw_v_panther_ausf_g]

Addressing issue with "developing before I even need it", I think it could be resolved with additional constraints, like: if you want to develop car manufacturing - you need to produce 100t of mechanical parts first, etc. To get experience with simpler stuff before going forward with cars.

[esbenmf]

But it seems like a nice idea to have a bit of research coupled to buy a new blueprint, maybe kind of like how new foreign connections are handled.

[Aurunikum]

I see the reasearch like sending the people to other countries or universities or may be foreighn industries, to learn the technologies and to prepare so that our republic gets this way specialists which can after that time, realise and work with this techniques in our republic.

But over all, I would like if the game starts 1950, and the technology costs would be doubled. And some technologies should be researchable after a starting year. If you reseach it before it should cost about (5 times the years before estemate) times or so. For example Wind and Solar could not be researched before the 1980s so if you want this in 1965 it costs 5x15 times to research it.

And it would be cool if we could develop(research) our own ultimate vehicles on the universities especially for the late game 1990+

[kessie51]

Originally posted by pzkpfw_v_panther_ausf_g:

Addressing issue with "developing before I even need it", I think it could be resolved with additional constraints, like: if you want to develop car manufacturing - you need to produce 100t of mechanical parts first, etc. To get experience with simpler stuff before going forward with cars.

It kind-of does that already ... Assuming you're not just importing components, that is.. Most elements of research in my experience have some dependencies, so you can't just research B before researching A.. I think I've even seen a guide to the research chain around somewhere...

Vehicle research would have to be dependant on having researched other things first. For example you may be able to design your own ships and cars before aircraft because they don't need aluminium. The logic is already in the game.

I note a couple more good points..

ebsnemf's comment about blueprints.. My suggestion would be to be able to research our own Blueprints. It only requires to copy, rework or just change the name (eg Crabby instead of Trabi) of some vehicles that are already in the game. These "new" vehicles cannot be licensed or bought from foreign states, only made in your home republic. Making them a bit cheaper for your home market to buy than the foreign equivalent would be good too..

Aurunkum makes good a point about dates, although the game starts so late into the 20th Century there should be no great mystery in things like the principles of building ships in a seafaring nation, etc. Nothing they couldn't Research anyway.. Also - Following the principles of the game, if researching everything else can be done in, say, under ten years, I don't see why it should take another 30 years to research how to use that information to produce your own vehicles. Limiting development by date feels a bit heavy handed, there are plenty of constraints already, Limiting specific models of vehicle by date makes sense though.. Same as it does in the game now.

[pzkpfw_v_panther_ausf_g]

Originally posted by kessie51:

It kind-of does that already ... Assuming you're not just importing components, that is.. Most elements of research in my experience have some dependencies, so you can't just research B before researching A.. I think I've even seen a guide to the research chain around somewhere...

Yes, but the point is that, you need an univeristy quite early in the game to train your teachers and doctors that are essential. So, I also start research quite early and, with my playstyle, I'm far from car manufacturing yet but I have all engineering researches already done. My understanding of the post I was referring to, was that there could be a significant misalignment between country's industry actual (exisitng) facilities and theoretical research, which ruins my sense of progression in that matter. It's also quite realistic that you gain knowledge not only through theoretical studies but also from practical application of technology.

Originally posted by kessie51:

ebsnemf's comment about blueprints.. My suggestion would be to be able to research our own Blueprints. It only requires to copy, rework or just change the name (eg Crabby instead of Trabi) of some vehicles that are already in the game. These "new" vehicles cannot be licensed or bought from foreign states, only made in your home republic. Making them a bit cheaper for your home market to buy than the foreign equivalent would be good too..

I like it. Would be cool to develop your own brand with all the parts separately that would impact car's characteristics, like transmission, engine etc, with upgrading next iterations of your truck (for example).

Originally posted by kessie51:

Aurunkum makes good a point about dates, although the game starts so late into the 20th Century there should be no great mystery in things like the principles of building ships in a seafaring nation, etc. Nothing they couldn't Research anyway..

Not sure if I understand correctly. Actually, one thing is to develop something yourself and completely different thing is to copy latest technology and mass produce it. Good examples are car or defence industries, countries where certain industry capabilities are lost or underdeveloped, will rather buy technology from leading countries first and then develop own capabilities through gaining practical experience and training people. Reinventing the wheel from scratch will take way too long.

[ArielMomo]

i tried the research tree and it is not working as it should. For one, i had 8 universities from the early years, so in a matter of few years I got the full research tree done as many others have mentioned. This is way too easy, because you NEED educated workers too early. maybe the problem is only that. without educated workers, he republic fails, i guess the balance is not correct.

[kessie51]

Originally posted by ArielMomo:

i tried the research tree and it is not working as it should. For one, i had 8 universities from the early years, so in a matter of few years I got the full research tree done as many others have mentioned. This is way too easy, because you NEED educated workers too early. maybe the problem is only that. without educated workers, he republic fails, i guess the balance is not correct.

Could be - although you have the option to "buy in" labour, I suppose.. I generally agree with you. Feels like Research was someone's good idea but implementation is a but half-assed.. Not really the point of my post but a valid one.

[6toros6]

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