How would/should the police/Militsiya be implemented?

[CutseyBrooksey]

Looking forward to takes on this.
While the game is a solid buy and experience right now, you can't really get the feel for a Soviet/Eastern Bloc state with out the security apparatus of the state.

As such, how should that be represented in game?
As this is a city/resource simulator and not a politics or war game, I think it's safe to say that there shouldn't be invasions or military conflicts in the game.

But given the ethos of the game, the setting of it, I think the best way to create the need for the militsiya early game at least, should citizens who are corrupt via petty theft of state property and resources from work places, which was a common and crucial drag on the Soviet economy.

Mid to late game, maybe failure to keep citizen needs satisfied would spawn a dissident movement that would lead to demonstrations that in game are reflected in strikes/buildings/sections of the work force ceasing to work which could be tackled by the militsiya

While I think the entire escapee mechanic should be reworked and 21 year old citizens able to move further across the map to find empty housing.
Maybe another job for the police could be to try and prevent escapes.

Also a system of jails for petty crimes and maybe corrective labour camps for more serious offenders could also be included which would allow the player to transplant captive workers to remote areas of the map for hard to reach work sites that setting up the infastructure for citizens make it unfeasible?


Also when the army/military is implemented (lets be honest, you can't really replicate a Soviet republic with out the draft/military aspect inherent to Eastern bloc regimes) a trade off to make them economically of value in the game is that the army would multiply the police mechanic?

Just some thoughts on my part, eager to hear what the communities ideas on this are.

[hjkdsfkhjn]

I really like the philosophy style this discussion turned into.

[CutseyBrooksey]

Messaggio originale di fjorkar:

Messaggio originale di NotATypicalTory:

The best system, which I also think would fit nicely into the games ethos, would be to have disgruntled workers steal resources from their work places.

the little difference between two stories:
First story: A hungry citizen is upset, he did not get food because the truck / bus was late, the citizen goes to the camp and steals food.
The player builds a police station and a prison, buys two police cars and sets up a bus or two lines (to the police station and to the prison) to catch the thieves and throw the thieves in jail, the player saves this game and goes to sleep, he arrested five criminals.
second story:
A hungry citizen is upset, he did not get any food because the truck / bus was late, the citizen goes home and the house information window says that a hungry citizen is upset.
The player builds a second shop near the house, buys a new, larger and faster truck, sets up a new bus route or buys another bus. On the second day, everyone in the house is full.
The player saves the game and goes to sleep. He made all of his citizens happy.
That is the difference between the challenge in Tropicoskylinecytiprisontycon and co etc.
and in Workers & Resources: Soviet Republic

It might come as a shock, but some people steal/commit crime even if they have food, water, shelter and even wealthy..... no matter what society or economic system they reside in.

[MrKrabs]

Theft may occur like a fire or snow. But fire and snow we can deal so far in the game.
I would like to be able to solve a problem. So if there is police and/or Army running over the map I would like to have a task for them. Imagine we could not use the CO´s. Just build them to look at it. That wouldn´t be fun I guess. Not to mention the checkpoints and watchtowers we can build. At the moment there is nothing to watch.

OT:
Crime IRL has man reasons imho. The likelihood may shrink if the prosperity of any society rises. But it will never disappear. It´s a pity though.
I have my personal thesis about what prevents people from commiting crime.
Don´t really like to say it. But I believe it´s fear.

The above said may deserve a separate thread. Don´t want to drift away to much.

[6toros6]

Messaggio originale di Thomas:

I understand it is a game.But to bring stolen coal to trade with border officer from another country sound ridiculous in real life and in the game.
And before we go crazy with suggestions, we need to understand game engine limitations.

Well, its English name is smuggling and it has existed since world is world, in all kind of political regimes and sometimes even known and overlooked by the authorities.

The question here is how (or if) police/militia fixes naturally into this game. It seems that whatever mechanism is included in this game has an influence (whether real o for game purposes). For instance, fires. Some parts of the game fit better to reality, some less and more for game play (is it close to reality that a fire station has a range so that their effect reach to a building and not to another 1 meter apart, to put an evident example?)

In my opinion, I can't find a nice fit for armies, since armies are usually designed (unfortunately not always) to fight against foreign enemies and, apart from trading, the borders don't have any other use in the game. What would an army prevent in the game? An invasion? That's another game for sure.

Police could fit with difficulties, but I think that that could be possible. My point is that police is meant to fight against law-breakers. And that happens in whatever political regime. What is unreal is not having police in a communist (or capitalist) country. Or didn't CCCP or East Germany have a police and judges and prisons and all? Or did they have it only to have it? Were all the police affairs and trials and people in prisons there related to political issues? I guess not.

Following the reasoning here, a citizen in this game would be more persuaded to commit crime if the state doesn't give the right living conditions, being the most basic (since there's no water simulated) food and perhaps, heat. So, it the citizen is hungry and about to die, it could steal food. But that doesn't make much sense gamewise (we would only notice that some food would disappear from one place and that some people that would die, don't do it). No fun.

However, in the game we have (as it happened historically) a socialist republic that is immerse in a capitalist world and in the game we have money and borders just to trade with the outside. The only point I can see that would influence in the game mechanics is to include the outside world in the equation for dealing with crime and police. It more or less would work like this:
1. The player don't provide certain vital resources, specially food to some citizens.
2. Those citizens look for resources to steal.
3. They get food at the borders for that. So, for the good part, they don't die.
4. But if there are many of them, it could be very disruptive since other vital resources can disappear (maybe they don't die of hunger, but they eventually die because there's no coal in the heating plant or, that beautiful road I'm building is delayed because some material is stolen).
5. This effect could be prevented with police with cars and patrols and, prisons? I don't know...

For those of you that claim that the engine of the game has limitations, the simulation can go as deep as possible or desired. I don't see those people protesting against citizens or vehicles "magically" returning home after work. Why wouldn't the citizens be able to go "magically" to the border and exchange goods there, if needed?

[Slend]

I know I don't have the game, but in terms of military something I thought of was this:
The Military would be able to serve as more effective versions of police maintaining order wherever they go while being more expensive, but that would not be their main purpose.

They would be able to be called in for a variety of things for a number of reasons if they have a military base available.

- The player could call them in as a supplementary heavy-duty workforce, costing either resources and/or funding. Initially they would be able to supply themselves but they'd rely on your resource management more the longer they stay. If you can't supply the supplement force after a while, they get revoked and leave, and maybe party loyalty drops.

- The player could be offered to accept a temporary soldier garrison for some kind of benefit as long as the soldiers are supplied. Lots of ways to go with this, possibly.

- The player could of course have soldiers recruited (or drafted) and as others said put through training courses at marked military locations, which would expend fuel and ammunition. They'd not be revoked from the player for lack of supply but they could still run or commit crimes if it gets really bad for them.

- The player could request for soldiers that were recruited from the area to do a ceremonial parade in marked areas to boost party loyalty. It'd expend fuel for vehicles included and usual traffic from citizens in the area would have to stop.

[Thomas]

To 6toros6.
I understand what you are trying to say. But smuggling did not work well in USSR from Stalin times till collapse of USSR.Soviet kids grew reading a book about hero border patrol soldier and his smart dog. If you are thinking soviet border was like US- Canadian one, it was not.Average soviet citizen never had access to something valuable for foreign country to be interested in trading. Exceptions were people working on military stuff, but those guys had no access to border areas. By the way , I asked someone how much he paid for coal in USSR. One ton of coal= 1000 kg costed 15 rubles in late seventies. He used it to heat a house.So bag of coal was useless. If you knew right guy , you could have a truck of coal for 1 bottle of vodka.
Did people steal? Yes they did. But not like every day. Mostly small stuff. Like drill bits or small tools. Because store not always had them. Someone who worked on meat plant took some meat.But they were not making a living stealing.And militia did not spend much time putting those guys in jail for it. Only in Stalin times they did.
As game goes, I am aware citizens teleport. But it was made that way to improve FPS. And even now FPS go down with hundreds of thousand people. I am OK with that. But I am not OK with citizens teleport both ways, to border and back to work site.
If we want to have a feeling of soviet times and militia, simple patrols boosting happiness of citizens and tourists will be enough. And not overloading PC with bunch of useless calculations. All those ideas are cool but how many times you follow your citizen in the game? And how often? Citizens die in 2-3 years anyway. I care more for late game FPS boost then all those little details.Because they are cool first or second time, but then you will not pay attention anymore. I do not follow every ambulance or fire truck in my Republic.Same will be with police.

[l4D6hkIR09A1pGu]

Messaggio originale di MrKrabs:

But it should be challenging.
Like you get a message that in one year will come 10k people. They have to be picked up by the border, accommodated, fed, maybe educated, and to be sent back after a while. Maybe a fraction like to stay. Many Szenarios possible.

That's not really how it works... Refugee flows suddenly happen. You might get a couple of months warning that something might happen, but nothing you can plan for.

There are also big differences in the types of refugee flows. There could be large scale migration due to war, or smaller movements of individually persecuted people.

It'd be great if it could be implemented - you could set policies for receiving refugees (accept/reject, integrate or resettle, with implications for housing, supplies, party loyalty, etc.), have to deal with influx sent to hastily constructed camps, etc.

[Undertaker]

From what I read here, there is apparent dissonance between two approaches. The first approach calls for more realistic depiction of Soviet lands, the other regards the game as a "socialist realism"-style utopia, which is of course not even close to reality, but I see how it can be of certain appeal, yes. What I personally do not see, however, is a way to resolve this contradiction that would leave both sides satisfied. Them developers seem to steer the game in a more or less balanced direction though, and according to their roadmap, enforcers are on their list already.

[MrKrabs]

I believe sharing our thoughts and ideas is already helpful. Me myself I find it very interesting to read the different opinions especially since we are an international community.

[Gregers Down Under]

It is ironic that a Communist building game doesn't yet have police. Nazi Germany, China and Russia, are all police states. Police states that use police and military to oppress the people and make sure non of them stood out of line. A cool feature to have could be that come the 90s, when the soviets union was collapsing and the people started adopting democracy, the player can choose to support democracy or socialism/ communism. Try to avoid conflict.

Edit: Not meant to be taken as a bashing of the game. I'm actually about to buy it. Just my opinion on how history should be correctly portrayed as well as making the game even more cool.

[johntarmac]

I'm struggling to see the point in having police.

Food is provided, steak is in abundance so no-one needs to steal a bag of potatoes.
Clothing is the height of fashion and everyone gets a new outfit everyday.
Every citizen is snug as a bug in a rug and listening to their radio or watching TV.

That leaves
The guy who can't handle his alcohol and wants to start a fight.
Someone who doesn't like the way his neighbour looks at his wife.
The household that plays their music too loud.
The litter dropper.
The person who thinks anyone with a different opinion has a low IQ.

As far as I'm concerned that's all sorted out in the background and doesn't warrant my attention


If people over 21 want to leave that's fine, if they're eating food and not working then I'd happily provide a bus for them to the border.

[sreckosojic89]

As I said before few days, Police (or Militsiya, or in Southern Slavic countries Milicija) should be good for boosting government loyalty. When player puts one or more law enforcment car patrols on the streets, citizens would feel safer. Also, I agree that tourists may feel safer when they're in reach of law enforcment patrols.
We here in Croatia have a joke about milicija. They drove small Zastava 750's which we called "little fiats" and joke is they were more efficient than modern law enforcement. Yes, I agree that police in socialist countries was also tool for political repression.
Please, don't mistake militia for armed forces. Militia in socialist countries was law enforcement in command of Interior ministries or Interior secretaries - like in Yugoslavia, Romania or Poland.

[CutseyBrooksey]

Messaggio originale di Undertaker:

From what I read here, there is apparent dissonance between two approaches. The first approach calls for more realistic depiction of Soviet lands, the other regards the game as a "socialist realism"-style utopia, which is of course not even close to reality, but I see how it can be of certain appeal, yes. What I personally do not see, however, is a way to resolve this contradiction that would leave both sides satisfied. Them developers seem to steer the game in a more or less balanced direction though, and according to their roadmap, enforcers are on their list already.

It's easy to solve the conflict.

The police mechanic if it ever does come, will almost certainly have an option to be turned off when you start a game.

The contention is, is that one side is trying to argue ''I don't like the idea, I don't want the idea, so no one who plays the game should have an option to have it'', either out of ideological dogma or so other weird logic.

I tried to get the discussion on ways to implement this mechanic into the game, and then we got weird comments about how police shouldn't exist in perfect societies and we should build a perfect society in game so there for there shouldn't be police in the game....

[Krossof]

stop this wall of text bullsch1t srsly.


police jobs in this game:

violence, safty, misbehavior, robbery, speeder

military jobs in this game:

nice to look at, border control


Police is the eyecandy in this game. we all will watch a speeder - poilce hunt and a robbery from our ppl or the other cun-trys who chase to the border with 0.25 tons of eleconics.


And now for the myopic people here: no police because its communism?

hell no! i have to work my wole life in a job i dont want and my GF is cheating with the dog next door.

Yea, no police needed. i will fix it myself.

i can just lough about ur comments about perfect society. You cant even think properly about humans behavior. So pls stop this and talk about the game and not working signals again.

[hjkdsfkhjn]

Can we PLEASE make some kind of poll to see what other people want ?