Importing/outsourcing too convenient!

[Octavius]

Compared to producing goods and constructing buildings yourself, the option to just import or outsource those things with zero logistical issues makes doing those things yourself practically speaking not worth it. You're so much better off exporting high value goods and importing everything again automatically when and where you need them. It's a shame, because organizing those things is most of the game's fun!

I'm starting a new game with house rules to limit myself from importing and outsourcing as much as possible, but it'd be better if the game provided an incentive for it. So here are some suggestions:

* Reduce the speed of outsourced construction. A well organised domestic construction industry should be competitive in speed.
* Make labour costs of outsourcing construction inflate severely as the game progresses, so you can still comfortably outsource your first buildings while gradually being pushed to use construction offices.
* Make Custom Houses where you have to import goods and then transport them yourself to where you need them.
* Make roads under construction traversable at Mud Road/Path speed levels, at least by Construction Office vehicles. I couldn't myself upgrade the road to my gravel storage from a mud to a gravel road, because the work made the road unusable and thus there was no source of gravel available.

Some of these are probably best implemented as optional difficulty settings, for new players they could be too frustrating especially when they're not yet polished.

[Shtahetta]

I feel the same, comrade. I think the easiest solution, without serious changes to game engine, would be treating the outsourced construction sites in the same way as domestic construction. The AI controlled vehicles will come from the border, carrying all materials and workers. Player will have just to make a mud road linking the construction to the border. The construction will take as much time, as fully supplied domestic one.

I also agree this should be optional difficulty setting, I understand not everyone may like it.

[Akira43]

My friend I was thinking the same as you are just yesterday. Why bother with manufacturing the basic resources when you can just import them auto magically to produce and export the good stuff.

The answer hit me like a brick unfortunately not quickly enough! >> TRANSPORT COSTS!

If you are importing and you are marginally close from the border it is a viable option. HOWEVER, start moving away and you start to need to either produce the basic material or import it close to the border and transport it yourself to your cities.

Example:
Iron ore (the most basic resource that you need ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ of) has a base price of around 10. My first city was not that close to border (around 3KM away), the price became 10 + 11 for transport.

When I built my Steel Mill,I moved it even further away (close to 2nd city with the Iron mine and where I had enough population) and setup the iron processing plant there to import iron ore.

The iron ore import price became 10 + 22 for transport. >> 32 FOR GOD SAKE!!

That means that manufacturing bricks for export (for example) is a losing game since it's selling price is 33.

Of course I did this whole thing for the steel mill and exporting Steel is still viable but if you are even further away from the border and you are importing both iron and coal directly let's say, I think even producing and exporting steel would loose it's healthy profit margin.

So yea, have a look at the import prices + transport at the place you wish to do so and your view on this might change ;)

[Icepic]

agreed

[pdaw.pd]

Originally posted by Maegfaer:

* Reduce the speed of outsourced construction. A well organised domestic construction industry should be competitive in speed.

Originally posted by Akira43:

TRANSPORT COSTS!

I was thinking about these two things and I came to the idea I would like to be shown a master class in constructing and also see what I am paying the delivery costs for. Literally.

I would like to see caravans of friendly NPC trucks and buses (with workers having infinite commuting timer patience for travel), or trains for huge shipments, or lone vans for small parcels of electronics or something, driving from the closest border crossing to wherever I've paid them to go and clogging my traffic to a complete deadlock in the process.

In the world of dialectic materialism there should be no room for razzle-dazzle smokes and mirrors and magic appearance of stuff in various places, right?

Also, if I bring in the immigrants, I would like them to travel, too. By personal cars or by trains - depending on their numbers.

[Yowst]

Originally posted by Maegfaer:

* Make Custom Houses where you have to import goods and then transport them yourself to where you need them.

I make storage bays at the border posts where I buy my stuff and then import it to the mainland. It is way cheaper for you practically don't have to pay for transport costs.

* Make roads under construction traversable at Mud Road/Path speed levels, at least by Construction Office vehicles. I couldn't myself upgrade the road to my gravel storage from a mud to a gravel road, because the work made the road unusable and thus there was no source of gravel available.

I upgrade roads bit by bit and make detours with mud roads already. Same thing as you implied is already there just like in real life where indeed detours are made. Sometimes just along the same stretch of road or sometimes around urban areas. It's the challenge after all.
Driving over wet tarmac would seem a bit odd to me.


The magic building by a click can be handled differently. Certainly in the beginning of the game it can go a bit quicker for when you are close to the border but those experienced builder crews must come from somewhere.

[Octavius]

Originally posted by Akira43:

So yea, have a look at the import prices + transport at the place you wish to do so and your view on this might change ;)

I'm aware of transport costs, but once you produce more than you use you can still afford it and is still very convenient. Once you are rich you are tempted to skip most of the game that way.

My first city was entirely around the lake that looks like a russian doll. Next to that lake is a lot of oil in the ground, and a little more east in the mountains there is both iron and coal. The area is not far from two custom houses, so transport costs aren't high. Since that location gives you all the resources you might need there's little point in expanding away from the borders.

My new game is in a different location, and first thing I did was building all Storage type buildings right next to a custom house. I'm only going to allow myself to import goods in Storage buildings that are right next to a custom house, from there I'll have to transport it inwards. After I've build a Concrete and Asphalt plant and my first Flat for workers I can build everything with the Construction Office and won't allow myself to outsource it anymore. This way I can't circumvent realistic logistics.

[Octavius]

Also, the insanely fast building speed creates the unrealistic situation that when a fire breaks out, you can build a firefighter within a few seconds, buy the trucks instantly and still be in time to save the burning building.

[Yowst]

Originally posted by Maegfaer:

After I've build a Concrete and Asphalt plant and my first Flat for workers I can build everything with the Construction Office and won't allow myself to outsource it anymore. This way I can't circumvent realistic logistics.

I do think, for now at least, making your own set of rules and limitations is the way to go. It's something I did quite fast seeing as this is as far as I know the only game where everything can be build by hand and having really neighbourhoods under construction, seeing everything move and make sure your logistics are up in order.
It brings me more pleasure than I probably should have!

[Akira43]

Yup, agreed, you can play the game as simple/complex as you wish it to be and enjoy it either way.
I am leaving the more complex/realistic way of playing for when it is in a more bug free/finished state to avoid added unwanted frustration though :)

[Octavius]

Originally posted by Tjobbert:

It brings me more pleasure than I probably should have!

It makes the game feel alive, I love it as well!

Also, a big benefit from building storages right at the start is that with Manual purchase you can stock your storages instantly at starting prices. Since prices of goods seem to generally inflate in this game, especially if you import them a lot, buying in bulk right at the start can save you a lot of money later on. I now got hundreds of tons of Steel that only cost about 365 Rubles per ton. In my previous game the prices got well above 400.

[gnrnr]

You guys sound like you are not playing on the hard economic start.

[Yowst]

Everything on hard but just the money on medium. I was out of it before I had my train line and stell works set up. Small exports by truck is what I do now to keep my country floating while I slowly manually build everything up to make my own rails and provide the rest like foods and stuff.
It's a great challenge! Way more then I ever had in say cities skylines.

[Octavius]

Originally posted by gnrnr:

You guys sound like you are not playing on the hard economic start.

I did. I used the first million Rubles to build multiple Oil Rigs, the required piping and oil storage, and then a train oil loader plus a rail and a tunnel to the nearest train custom house. Oil rigs don't require any workers, so my only constant cost was importing electricity. Then I started exporting raw oil until I had enough money to build a Refinery. Then I build my first house to get it up and running, and started exporting Fuel and Bitumen. From that point on money wasn't an issue anymore. I had two trains with a capacity of 360 and 480 tons constantly going between the oil field and the customs house.

Once you get the hang of this game it's not that hard to quickly become a strong exporter even on hard difficulties.

My new game with the house rules I started on Medium economy, because I specifically do not want to become a strong exporter. I'll have to use my starting money to get as self-sufficient as I can get, and only export a little electricity so I can keep buying vehicles. Sadly we can't build those ourselves yet!

[Octavius]

Now that I think of it, it might be a good idea to require researching the Refinery in the Technical University. It's a too convenient early money maker, even if you don't build oil rigs but simply build it next to the border and import the raw oil.

[gnrnr]

Originally posted by Maegfaer:

Originally posted by gnrnr:

You guys sound like you are not playing on the hard economic start.

I did. I used the first million Rubles to build multiple Oil Rigs, the required piping and oil storage, and then a train oil loader plus a rail and a tunnel to the nearest train custom house. Oil rigs don't require any workers, so my only constant cost was importing electricity. Then I started exporting raw oil until I had enough money to build a Refinery. Then I build my first house to get it up and running, and started exporting Fuel and Bitumen. From that point on money wasn't an issue anymore. I had two trains with a capacity of 360 and 480 tons constantly going between the oil field and the customs house.

Once you get the hang of this game it's not that hard to quickly become a strong exporter even on hard difficulties.

My new game with the house rules I started on Medium economy, because I specifically do not want to become a strong exporter. I'll have to use my starting money to get as self-sufficient as I can get, and only export a little electricity so I can keep buying vehicles. Sadly we can't build those ourselves yet!

That is almost cheating though :D Try doing the same thing, but this time start with a refinery and build a few rigs. trust me, very hard to keep on top of education and any expansion as you can only make a few hundred rubles per day.